PWCC PSA2 T3 Cobb

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think in the context of this particular thread people are being unfair to Jesse. He bought the card from Dan McKee who is a legend here, why would he think the card had been altered? (Perhaps Dan will enlighten us from whom he acquired it.)

He then stated his opinion of and some factual information about the card which obviously showed he had seen the card. The OP had specifically asked about the card, I don't see Jesse responding to him as trying to pimp his own auction or vouch for PWCC. And as soon as the alteration was identified, he confirmed it was his card as some people had not understood that, and indicated he was going to have the card pulled.

[pokerplyr80]

Thanks Peter. As I mentioned earlier I emailed the OP to pet him know it was my consignment and I did not believe it was altered. I stated the card presents well because the minor creases and any damage is mostly on the border only and the image and color is nice. That's why I bought it in the first place.

I am certainly not desperately running around trying to pump up my own auctions or consignments. But since it was called into question I responded.

[Fuddjcal]

If it comes from PWCC it's FAKE PERIOD.

[Rhotchkiss]

Jesse, this is a crappy situation- you bought this card from Dan, who is a good guy and very knowledgeable (not pwcc), and I am sure you felt comfortable with the purchase given the seller and the PSA “stamp of approval”. But now it’s been called out, and I must admit that it appears your card has indeed been tampered with (altered). So what now? I see it’s still live for sale on pwcc. Do you just leave it there and let it ride or do you pull it? Do you, or someone else, inform pwcc (I am sure they know already)?

What becomes of a card currently in a live auction, consigned by a board member to pwcc, that has very likely been altered and improperly graded by PSA?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Really? This Cobb is yours? At this point in time we know Brent sees dollar signs and is full of it, and we clearly can’t accept his opinion on anything in this hobby he is doing such great things for.

You now own a T3 Cobb that had pencil marks clearly on the O’s in Cobb and clearly erased now with the before and after photos.

Sorry for your loss, but at least someone else won’t be duped and assuming you bought it in the PSA 2 holder you can try and take it up with PSA to get your money back?

I’m sure Jesse will do the right thing and pull the card...

Please let us know how it goes with PSA in terms of getting your “guarantee” fulfilled. We would love to see a concrete example of PSA making good on their guarantee. PWCC has issued a few recent refunds. But very eager to hear if PSA will honor their word and make you whole.

Let us know....

A. If they make the return process customer-friendly (at least as easy as it is when THEY take YOUR money). You now have concrete evidence, after all.

B. If they try to push back, and say that you need to be made whole by the seller.

C. If they do refund you, how long is the wait to receive your money from PSA?

I personally am not holding my breath, but perhaps they’ll do the right thing? You could represent the first documented example on net54.

[pokerplyr80]

I reached out to Brent as soon as I became aware. Either the description will be updated to note the alteration or the listing will be pulled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

If it comes from PWCC it's FAKE PERIOD.

Jesse bought this card from Dan McKee.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jesse bought this card from Dan McKee.

Waiting to hear who Dan picked it up from

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I reached out to Brent as soon as I became aware. Either the description will be updated to note the alteration or the listing will be pulled.

You are a good man - that’s 100% the right move IMO.

[perezfan]

Agreed... good job.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Glad Jesse went the route he is going, but it does bug me to see board members still doing business with PWCC. "Because they get the best prices" trumps "Because they are fundamentally unethical" I guess.

And if anyone cares, I had consigned several big items to PWCC before I bought the company I now own. I was definitely a devil's advocate on their behalf for quite some time, so this isn't just a little guy who's happy to take punches at a big guy. However I might well be a little guy who's sick of seeing the devious ways some of these companies BECAME big guys, so I guess weigh that with my responses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Waiting to hear who Dan picked it up from

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Agreed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

You are a good man - that’s 100% the right move IMO.

I think the right thing to do is pull it and take it out of circulation and recert it back as an AUTH. Otherwise someone else could buy it and then sell it without disclosure.

[MULLINS5]

PWCC may just shill the disclosed listing to PSA 2 market value and then say look it didn't matter.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Glad Jesse went the route he is going, but it does bug me to see board members still doing business with PWCC. "Because they get the best prices" trumps "Because they are fundamentally unethical" I guess.

Look at it this way...the one and only reason any of this came to light was BECAUSE he listed it with Pwcc. Had he not it almost certainly would have gone under the radar.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I reached out to Brent as soon as I became aware. Either the description will be updated to note the alteration or the listing will be pulled.

Pulling the auction would be the right thing to do. Leaving it would just let someone else eventually get screwed by owning a altered card.

[warrior1978]

A card on my want list showed up on Ebay yesterday or today. I almost placed a snipe on the card when I realized it was being sold by PWCC. Nope, they are not getting my business. Will just have to wait on the card.

[Republicaninmass]

A saw a sweet i think it was a 68 topps Managers dream sgc "10 mint" I wanted to bid on. I saw it had been sold by pwcc a while back and I didnt bid, nor will I in any card that ever crossed his path

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

A saw a sweet i think it was a 68 topps Managers dream sgc "10 mint" I wanted to bid on. I saw it had been sold by pwcc a while back and I didnt bid, nor will I in any card that ever crossed his path

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yeah, that's the great thing about VCP research, you can track a card back.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by conor912

Look at it this way...the one and only reason any of this came to light was BECAUSE he listed it with Pwcc. Had he not it almost certainly would have gone under the radar.

You are definitely a glass half full kinda guy!

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

It was a very shaky connection like a Legos tower after the earthquake.

Lol. That being said, hope everyone (and their cards) out there are ok!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I reached out to Brent as soon as I became aware. Either the description will be updated to note the alteration or the listing will be pulled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3k...outu.be&t=1680

Brent says here he cannot edit an auction once it starts. So is Brent really going to amend to disclose that one of his listings is in fact altered? Recall the Mantle that started it all. I would just instruct him to take the card down, now. Even if he discloses, it's just a problem when the buyer tries to clean up on a later listing without disclosing.

Get a refund through McKee or compensation from PSA.

[pokerplyr80]

After discussion with Brent we have agreed to let the auction continue. The following has been added to the description. I understand this is not what some of you would like to see but I feel it's a reasonable solution and discloses both the alteration and the fact that the card was bumped from it's previous holder.

*****NOTICE*****



After the time of listing it has been noticed that this card shows two faint eraser marks in the "o" of Cobb and Detroit on the bottom name plate. This detail was not included in the original description, so it is be disclosed now. Additionally, at the request of the submitter we would like to disclose that this same card was previously graded Authentic-Altered (PSA serial number 23331183). In our opinion the current grade of a 'Good 2' appears completely appropriate. Please bid accordingly.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

After discussion with Brent we have agreed to let the auction continue. The following has been added to the description. I understand this is not what some of you would like to see but I feel it's a reasonable solution and discloses both the alteration and the fact that the card was bumped from it's previous holder.

*****NOTICE*****



After the time of listing it has been noticed that this card shows two faint eraser marks in the "o" of Cobb and Detroit on the bottom name plate. This detail was not included in the original description, so it is be disclosed now. Additionally, at the request of the submitter we would like to disclose that this same card was previously graded Authentic-Altered (PSA serial number 23331183). In our opinion the current grade of a 'Good 2' appears completely appropriate. Please bid accordingly.

IMO...somewhat honorable that you 2 decided to disclose that info...yet you get deductions for feeling that the current grade is warranted/double speak. So it's kind of a wash to me.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

After discussion with Brent we have agreed to let the auction continue. The following has been added to the description. I understand this is not what some of you would like to see but I feel it's a reasonable solution and discloses both the alteration and the fact that the card was bumped from it's previous holder.

*****NOTICE*****



After the time of listing it has been noticed that this card shows two faint eraser marks in the "o" of Cobb and Detroit on the bottom name plate. This detail was not included in the original description, so it is be disclosed now. Additionally, at the request of the submitter we would like to disclose that this same card was previously graded Authentic-Altered (PSA serial number 23331183). In our opinion the current grade of a 'Good 2' appears completely appropriate. Please bid accordingly.

I gotta be honest...I think this is a terrible way to handle it.

There's no question the card is altered. None. To imply the grade is legit is dishonest at worst, disingenuous at best.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And what about the person who buys it and then resells it without that disclosure? IMO this is BS. You should take it down. You can't need the money that badly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The title has not changed. The amendment won't even be seen unless someone scrolls all the way to the very bottom after the pages of PWCC boilerplate. This is BS. I thought you had more integrity than this.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And what about the person who buys it and then resells it without that disclosure? IMO this is BS. You should take it down. You can't need the money that badly.

It's easy to spend someone else's money. Why don't you buy the card and have it reholdered?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bensie

It's easy to spend someone else's money. Why don't you buy the card and have it reholdered?

Not my card that is being sold fraudulently, bro.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bensie

It's easy to spend someone else's money. Why don't you buy the card and have it reholdered?

point is that there is a way to recoup his $$$$$ it will just take a little more effort but it is the right thing to do.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not my card that is being sold fraudulently, bro.

Like I said, talk is cheap. Would love to see what you would actually do if it were your gravy on the line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bensie

Like I said, talk is cheap. Would love to see what you would actually do if it were your gravy on the line.

I would without hesitation take the card down.

[rhettyeakley]

Gotta admit that is a pretty weak way to handle this Jesse!

No mention it used to be in an Authentic holder previously? You really don't feel like that might be a important piece of information? I'm actually appalled that you feel like this is okay in any way shape or form, it also speaks volumes about Brent and his decision (despite everything that has gone on) to continue with this auction, he has learned nothing!

The work on that T3 destroyed that card, the edges are obviously messed with and they really butchered the erasure on the front, just terrible. Do you guys (you & Brent) need more proof that this card was altered?

I think we all know why Jesse was coming to Brent's defense here on the forum, far from an impartial observer.

Overall this is pathetic!

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by bensie

Like I said, talk is cheap. Would love to see what you would actually do if it were your gravy on the line.

I for one wouldn't be an a**hole and try to pass the buck to another [possibly] unsuspecting collector... you know the "right thing" to do.

Many here have cards worth far more than an altered T3 Cobb and if they were proven to be altered, stolen or otherwise messed with the vast majority here would do the "right thing." That should be par for the course.

Why would anyone here have to correct someone else's mistake? It is on them not us or some keyboard warrior (ie you).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Gotta admit that is a pretty weak way to handle this Jesse!

No mention it used to be in an Authentic holder previously? You really don't feel like that might be a important piece of information? I'm actually appalled that you feel like this is okay in any way shape or form, it also speaks volumes about Brent and his decision (despite everything that has gone on) to continue with this auction, he has learned nothing!

The work on that T3 destroyed that card, the edges are obviously messed with and they really butchered the erasure on the front, just terrible. Do you guys (you & Brent) need more proof that this card was altered?

I think we all know why Jesse was coming to Brent's defense here on the forum, far from an impartial observer.

Overall this is pathetic!

And yet the amendment says the following.
In our opinion the current grade of a 'Good 2' appears completely appropriate.

A disgrace.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bensie

It's easy to spend someone else's money. Why don't you buy the card and have it reholdered?

If only there was a company willing to reimburse him the current market value for a card that was Altered and put in a numbered holder...maybe they even have a Grade Guarantee or something that could be utilized in this fashion?

[rhettyeakley]

I read too fast and didn't see that Brent did mention that it had previously been graded authentic BUT I don't understand how a card can be holdered "AUTHENTIC" due to some alteration & then the said alterations were removed (and done so terribly) so in affect re-altering an already altered card somehow in you minds can be an accurate PSA 2? And only mentioned in small print at the end of the description? What is wrong with you guys?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If only there was a company willing to reimburse him the current market value for a card that was Altered and put in a numbered holder...maybe they even have a Grade Guarantee or something that could be utilized in this fashion?

Ya...the mentality of many in the hobby the last 10 or so years is that you just can't lose money...but it happens! Not every card only goes up in value? You win some...you lose some...no one wins them all unless you're a crook!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I read too fast and didn't see that Brent did mention that it had previously been graded authentic BUT I don't understand how a card can be holdered "AUTHENTIC" due to some alteration & then the said alterations were removed (and done so terribly) so in affect re-altering an already altered card somehow in you minds can be an accurate PSA 2? And only mentioned in small print at the end of the description? What is wrong with you guys?

After page after page of PWCC boilerplate. NOBODY is going to see this. And if they do, they will read how Brent says the grade is appropriate. It's beyond belief that you have signed onto this Jesse. And (rhetorical question) what is wrong with Brent after all that's happened pulling this crap instead of taking down an altered card? He does the wrong thing, it seems, every single time.

[BLongley]

Guess this is why Jesse has remained a fan of PWCC... because they both have the same integrity. I can only hope that this information makes it into the investigation. The recent update shows the following looking into PWCC:

-FBI Criminal Justice Information Systems
-The Supreme Court Of The U.S.
-U.S. House Of Representatives
-eBay Inc

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think in the context of this particular thread people are being unfair to Jesse. He bought the card from Dan McKee who is a legend here, why would he think the card had been altered? (Perhaps Dan will enlighten us from whom he acquired it.)

He then stated his opinion of and some factual information about the card which obviously showed he had seen the card. The OP had specifically asked about the card, I don't see Jesse responding to him as trying to pimp his own auction or vouch for PWCC. And as soon as the alteration was identified, he confirmed it was his card as some people had not understood that, and indicated he was going to have the card pulled.

Sorry, late as usual but thanks for explaining these details Peter. What's obvious to some here isn't so obvious to others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Sorry, late as usual but thanks for explaining these details Peter. What's obvious to some here isn't so obvious to others.

You may want to keep reading the thread, all that has changed. When I wrote that I assumed Jesse was taking the card down.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

After page after page of PWCC boilerplate. NOBODY is going to see this. And if they do, they will read how Brent says the grade is appropriate. It's beyond belief that you have signed onto this Jesse. And (rhetorical question) what is wrong with Brent after all that's happened pulling this crap instead of taking down an altered card? He does the wrong thing, it seems, every single time.

I was sent the statement via email and did not notice the placement. I will discuss further with Brent. My intention was to have prospective bidders made aware of the history that I was unaware of when purchasing this card and let them make their own decision.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I was sent the statement via email and did not notice the placement. I will discuss further with Brent. My intention was to have prospective bidders made aware of the history that I was unaware of when purchasing this card and let them make their own decision.

Did you approve the statement that the grade was appropriate? And what about the next time the card gets sold? The right thing to do here is SO obvious.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

In our opinion the current grade of a 'Good 2' appears completely appropriate. Please bid accordingly.

This sentence feels like a proverbial middle finger to be honest.

They admit the card has had work done to it and that it was correctly graded as Authentic/Altered but now that it's in a 2 holder then F you, it's a 2 now sucker.

[Bicem]

Too funny, if it were any other AH other than PWCC Jesse would be leading the charge pitchfork in hand.

[BLongley]

Look at these great things Brent is still doing...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3827

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3839

And Jesse you’re getting famous over on other forums too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

This sentence feels like a proverbial middle finger to be honest.

They admit the card has had work done to it and that it was correctly graded as Authentic/Altered but now that it's in a 2 holder then F you, it's a 2 now sucker.

Of course no picture of the Authentic so people can judge the actual work.

[ValKehl]

What about the 17 folks who have already bid on this card plus those folks that haven't yet bid but have created snipes, many/most of whom probably did so before the disclosure was added to the bottom of PWCC's eBay listing? My guess is that most of these folks won't even be going back the reread the listing's details. At least I don't after I have once read a listing's details and decided to bid on it. IMO, at the very least, some words about there being a new disclosure should be added to the title line of the listing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

What about the 17 folks who have already bid on this card plus those folks that haven't yet bid but have created snipes, many/most of whom probably did so before the disclosure was added to the bottom of PWCC's eBay listing? My guess is that most of these folks won't even be going back the reread the listing's details. At least I don't after I have once read the listing's details and decided to bid on it. IMO, at the very least, some words about there being a new disclosure should be added to the title line of the listing.

I don't think titles can be amended after bids have been placed. Could be wrong. Either way, you make an excellent point about snipes, this mess cannot possibly be fixed in the context of a live auction.