NY Times covers the scandal

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Glenn—Ken’s collection is more condition rarities than really rare cards. He has the trimmed Wagner, a PSA 10 ‘52 Topps Mantle, and other high grade cards such as the M101-5 Thorpe, a nice, albeit blank back, M101 Ruth, etc. None of the rarest cards in the hobby are in his collection.

Oh, okay. [yawn]

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Yes, Thanks Peter. Always the voice of reason around here.

Credit goes to the BO guys who have found all these cards and identified the bad certs, as well as to the person who contacted the Times reporter.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Credit goes to the BO guys who have found all these cards and identified the bad certs, as well as to the person who contacted the Times reporter.

Credit to all of you.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Kudos to you Peter and the other board member.

Indeed

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Online today, hard copy tomorrow I am told.

You would think they could have found a better source for that comment about originality.

Gary denied everything, it seems. He was only looking for bumps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/y...ype=collection

Peter - Did we honestly expect him to say “here’s my address...I’m guilty....come and get me and take me away to prison”???? As an extremely competent lawyer, you of all people know in this country it’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We know the real deal, and we also know ANY card doctor will “go down swinging” before admitting full guilt.

Regards,
Joe T.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Peter - Did we honestly expect him to say “here’s my address...I’m guilty....come and get me and take me away to prison”???? As an extremely competent lawyer, you of all people know in this country it’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We know the real deal, and we also know ANY card doctor will “go down swinging” before admitting full guilt.

Regards,
Joe T.

I would have advised him not to speak to the press, and I think most lawyers would have done the same. This is the first time in history probably that Brent has not shot his mouth off so clearly that message was delivered to him.

[Stampsfan]

Thanks from me too, Peter. Appreciate your diligence on this (and other) topics. I hope this story grows larger and larger in terms of coverage.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would have advised him not to speak to the press, and I think most lawyers would have done the same. This is the first time in history probably that Brent has not shot his mouth off so clearly that message was delivered to him.

Gary’s denials are not really helpful to him, not sure what he was thinking. I’m guessing he doesn’t have a lawyer. Meanwhile, Peter has been consistently vocal on this trimming issue for 13 years and counting and deserves all the praise. It’s not easy to have the same inane argumente day after day, year after year on these obvious issues of fraud, with financially interested people who will swear the moon is made of green cheese im order to make an extra buck.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Glenn—Ken’s collection is more condition rarities than really rare cards. He has the trimmed Wagner, a PSA 10 ‘52 Topps Mantle, and other high grade cards such as the M101-5 Thorpe, a nice, albeit blank back, M101 Ruth, etc. None of the rarest cards in the hobby are in his collection.

I harsh assessment of what by almost any standard is at worst one of the top 2 or 3 collections in the world, at least as far as I'm aware. The article is actually referring to what are generally accepted as the top 25 cards in the hobby in terms of value, significance, and popularity. Keep in mind this article was written by a journalist who obviously doesn't collect. A few details are bound to be incorrect.

[RedsFan1941]

congratulations to peter on joining the 1 percent

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I harsh assessment of what by almost any standard is at worst one of the top 2 or 3 collections in the world, at least as far as I'm aware. The article is actually referring to what are generally accepted as the top 25 cards in the hobby in terms of value, significance, and popularity. Keep in mind this article was written by a journalist who obviously doesn't collect. A few details are bound to be incorrect.

Jay stated condition rarities. Not too hard to comprehend.

[oldjudge]

Jesse, I never said his cards are not valuable; I just said that they are not rare.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Notwithstanding the lame rhetoric by Orlando and Moser and the mute response by Huigens, I'm glad to see this scandal is making national news. The more publicity, the more pressure will be put on PSA to proactively address the problem. Great work Peter!

By the way, has anyone heard from Michael O'Keefe of the New York Daily News? He was the lone voice in the wilderness in the media many years ago on hobby news like this.

Mr. O'Keefe, as was the case with most of the Daily News staff was laid off years ago. He's out of the sports card reporting business.

Rich

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by aaroncc

Jay stated condition rarities. Not too hard to comprehend.

I understand what Jay wrote. It's your comprehension of my statement that needs improvement.

[MULLINS5]

If Moser was looking for just bumps the certs would be the same....

I bet the feds can pull some of his fingerprints off them.

[oldjudge]

Patrick-I don't think that is so. His best chance for a bump, even if he did nothing to the card, would be to break it out and resubmit it. That would generate a new certificate number.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jesse, I never said his cards are not valuable; I just said that they are not rare.

I never said you did. Rare is a relative term but some of his cards are what most would consider rare.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Online today, hard copy tomorrow I am told.

You would think they could have found a better source for that comment about originality.

Yeah, that guy did not come across well

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Patrick-I don't think that is so. His best chance for a bump, even if he did nothing to the card, would be to break it out and resubmit it. That would generate a new certificate number.

Ah, gotcha. Wasn't considering that. I was thinking, if he submitted as reviews, and they were bumped, the certs would remain the same.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Not really the rarest (unless you consider them the rarest for their condition?), but certainly some of the most valuable.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...on-on-exhibit/

Thanks for the link. I love that he has the D Backs collection on all flips. Very smart. Even if determined to be altered, the cards are still from Kendrick's D Backs collection, which will make them valuable (exactly like the “Gretzky Wagner”).

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Rare is a relative term but some of his cards are what most would consider rare.

I think rarity is an absolute term in this context and just the inverse of population, so if there are 70 T206 Wagners that makes the card more rare than one of his cards with 100 copies but less rare than one of his cards with 10 copies, doesn't it?

[ruth_rookie]

Peter, does the fact that Moser actually commented indicate he hasn’t lawyered up yet? If he has surely he would have been advised to shut his pie hole. And if I see hundreds of doctored cards on the net linked to me, I’m buying the best attorney i can find, which should be a pretty damn good one considering the sheer volume of cards outed on BO and the funds that appear to be coming in faster than he can can count it.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie

Peter, does the fact that Moser actually commented indicate he hasn’t lawyered up yet? If he has surely he would have been advised to shut his pie hole. And if I see hundreds of doctored cards on the net linked to me, I’m buying the best attorney i can find, which should be a pretty damn good one considering the sheer volume of cards outed on BO and the funds that appear to be coming in faster than he can can count it.

I'm not surprised by what he said, but that talk to a NYT reporter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie

Peter, does the fact that Moser actually commented indicate he hasn’t lawyered up yet? If he has surely he would have been advised to shut his pie hole. And if I see hundreds of doctored cards on the net linked to me, I’m buying the best attorney i can find, which should be a pretty damn good one considering the sheer volume of cards outed on BO and the funds that appear to be coming in faster than he can can count it.

I can only speculate, I don't know Gary or have any idea really what he has or hasn't done on that front. All I can say is that if I had a client accused of similar acts, I am pretty sure I would advise him not to respond to press inquiries.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can only speculate, I don't know Gary or have any idea really what he has or hasn't done on that front. All I can say is that if I had a client accused of similar acts, I am pretty sure I would advise him not to respond to press inquiries.

Regardless, I’m betting he’ll have to obtain counsel at some point. Based on his comment he’ll probably plead not guilty, and his arrogance tells me odds are he’ll take the stand in his own defense. Can’t wait to watch him get chewed up and spit out on cross examination.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I think rarity is an absolute term in this context and just the inverse of population, so if there are 70 T206 Wagners that makes the card more rare than one of his cards with 100 copies but less rare than one of his cards with 10 copies, doesn't it?

I mean, I don’t believe there are many Wagners floating around in that condition. Nor any other of his cards for that matter. He has some of most difficult to obtain cards in existence.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I think rarity is an absolute term in this context and just the inverse of population, so if there are 70 T206 Wagners that makes the card more rare than one of his cards with 100 copies but less rare than one of his cards with 10 copies, doesn't it?

Doesn't your example show rare to be a relative term? 1 card is considered rare relative to another, yet common when compared to a 3rd card rarer than them both.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I mean, I don’t believe there are many Wagners floating around in that condition. Nor any other of his cards for that matter. He has some of most difficult to obtain cards in existence.

Especially in high grade. His PSA 9 CJ Shoeless Joe is absolutely sick.

[leaflover]

Ken Kendricks has tripled his money on that "TRIMMED WAGNER" card.

I hope the NYT will report when and where the upcoming "Altered Card Fire Sale" will be.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Mr. O'Keefe, as was the case with most of the Daily News staff was laid off years ago. He's out of the sports card reporting business.

Rich

Mike quickly was hired by Newsday in New York and is doing well.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Doesn't your example show rare to be a relative term? 1 card is considered rare relative to another, yet common when compared to a 3rd card rarer than them both.

Yes, in the same sense that tall is a relative term, but I wouldn't claim to be the tallest person in the world when others are objectively taller than I.

Maybe we're in agreement here. I guess my point is just that rarest is not a relative term.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Leon

I certainly prefer no politics on our forum. That said, when I was growing up I always thought the papers should just report the news and not take a political stand. I quit taking our paper, after many years, when they got all political. All that said, lets refrain from political commentary. This place has enough craziness already.

Back to the article, it is very good but it would have been nice to go a bit deeper on it. It didn't make the situation sound as bad as it really is, to me.

I am happy the article was in NYT -that’s great. But i'm disappointed that it makes the issue sound like it is a matter of taste whether a trimmed or deciliter card is graded highly. It doesn’t do justice to the fact that PSA is incompetent to find alteration.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Yes, in the same sense that tall is a relative term, but I wouldn't claim to be the tallest person in the world when others are objectively taller than I.

Maybe we're in agreement here. I guess my point is just that rarest is not a relative term.

Yea it was just an oversight in the article. I would assume the 25 rarest cards all have 1 or 2 copies in existence and also that I have never heard of most of them. But the comment that he just has a collection of condition rarities was an unnecessarily harsh description of what I personally believe is the finest collection I've ever seen or heard of. Even if that's not the way it was intended to read.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Online today, hard copy tomorrow I am told.

You would think they could have found a better source for that comment about originality.

Gary denied everything, it seems. He was only looking for bumps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/y...ype=collection

I have read it several times. So disappointing. Great job by Peter but the author totally misses the point and portrays the situation as a legitimate debate over whether restoration and alternation is ok, rather than about the intentional misrepresentation by card doctors and the incompetence of PSA and others. If this is the best of the coverage, the "scandal" will be largely a yawn. If this scandal is to become more than a tempest in the Net54 and BO teacup, then something different will have to be written, or a follow-up on arrests will have to follow.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I have read it several times. So disappointing. Great job by Peter but the author totally misses the point and portrays the situation as a legitimate debate over whether restoration and alternation is ok, rather than about the intentional misrepresentation by card doctors and the incompetence of PSA and others. If this is the best of the coverage, the "scandal" will be largely a yawn. If this scandal is to become more than a tempest in the Net54 and BO teacup, then something different will have to be written, or a follow-up on arrests will have to follow.

Very well said!

I wish the article included verbiage of the undeniable tampering, as documented on BO over and over again. Was there even one reference to the "before and after" photos on BO? I would think that a general audience would be interested to see examples of just how these cards were identified as altered.

Well at least it's a start.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

NYT is complete Bird Cage Paper but I might buy one tomorrow ...

Both of my birds are Independents

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Both of my birds are Independents

La Cage Aux Folles perhaps?

[kateighty]

Props to Peter! Now if only we could get that quote on a net54 t-shirt. I'd totally buy it.

[Johnny630]

To me this is article is all about the Vast Differences

Alteration/Fraud Why Because Cards Are made By a Machine not a Human!!
Art is a done by human being, restoration is acceptable if disclosed ....
That’s the point I wish people would get through their heads ....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

To me this is article is all about the Vast Differences

Alteration/Fraud Why Because Cards Are made By a Machine not a Human!!
Art is a done by human being, restoration is acceptable if disclosed ....
That’s the point I wish people would get through their heads ....

Comic books are made by a machine and alterations are acceptable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Times story was reprinted today in the Houston Chronicle, apparently. As well as the Sunday edition of the Times. So whatever our disagreements or disappointments with the focus, presumably more collectors will know there are issues.

https://www.pressreader.com/

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Times story was reprinted today in the Houston Chronicle, apparently. As well as the Sunday edition of the Times. So whatever our disagreements or disappointments with the focus, presumably more collectors will know there are issues.

https://www.pressreader.com/

Well done Peter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Well done Peter

I had nothing to do with it. Again, the credit for all this belongs with the person who alerted the Times to the story and the guys doing the detective work outing altered cards. My only contribution was to take a phone call and try to explain the issues to a guy who didn't have much background.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had nothing to do with it. Again, the credit for all this belongs with the person who alerted the Times to the story and the guys doing the detective work outing altered cards. My only contribution was to take a phone call and try to explain the issues to a guy who didn't have much background.

It would be great if this story makes it on the National Nightly News casts or the prime time big 3 cable News Stations Wednesday night before the National.

How many collectors and investors are going to continue to be ignorant to PSA’s ability to accurately grade cards ?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It would be great if this story makes it on the National Nightly News casts or the prime time big 3 cable News Stations Wednesday night before the National.

How many collectors and investors are going to continue to be ignorant to PSA’s ability to accurately grade cards ?

Doesn't feel like a nightly news story. It's a long shot, but maybe 60 Minutes.

[JollyElm]

Originally, the movie was called "4.5"...

7701013f86bb82b983aa52b624aa0041--celebrity-bikini-bodies-the-beach.jpg


But then the Moser/PWCC film company got a hold of the project and used all sorts of filters and editing in post-production to turn her into something to look at...

o-BO-DEREK-10-900.jpg

[perezfan]

Excellent!

And I think Shallow Hal would agree. Rumor has it that he's now a grader for PSA.

(Hopefully someone here remembers that movie )

[groundskeeper]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=110
Just keep scrolling forward or back. Hundreds of examples.

SWEET JESUS!
Hats off to the people who did the investigative work.
PWCC eneds to go.
PSA needs ...to....i don't know?
I'm done buying cards over 6!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Mr. O'Keefe, as was the case with most of the Daily News staff was laid off years ago. He's out of the sports card reporting business.

Rich

Michael O Keefe is now with Newsday. I offered him information on a story about the hobby but he told me that his newspaper would not have been interested.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

NYT is complete Bird Cage Paper but I might buy one tomorrow ...

Gee whiz, I wonder what they will now do with their 127 Pulitzer Prizes, including two this year. And I am sure more will be awarded to them.