Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Many top-10 lists look similar to this, with all 10 having played in the last 100 years yet only 1 (sometimes 2) has played in the last 50 years. Were ball players really that much better in the early-mid 20th century? Or do we tend to inflate the legacies those players left behind? In 50 years from now, will Maddux and Clemens and Pedro and Randy Johnson and Arod sneak into these lists? Or have we been watching bad baseball the past 50 years?

sorry to get off-topic, just making an observation

I think on a prewar card board there is going to be a lot of nostalgia inflation.

[tedzan]

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[nolemmings]

I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit, but that may be because of some early memories being burned into me for life.

I recall 1966 as a very young boy, and what he did to the American League that year seemed unearthly. I was starting to get into my hometown Twins, and my favorite player on that team, Tony Oliva, who had just won the AL batting crown his first two seasons. Frank Robinson beat him by 9 points, and I don't remember it being that close, although they were the only two (I think) to hit .300. The local slugger Killebrew finished second to Robby in HR-- ten behind. As it turned out, Robby not only won the triple crown, he led the league in runs scored by 23 and in slugging pct by 99 points! He then won World Series MVP by beating Drysdale twice and going 1 for 2 (triple) off of Koufax in the four-game sweep. Just truly seemed like he was in a league of his own.

He also was a very underrated baserunner and a smart player overall. I wonder if he lacked a bit of popularity because he split his career about evenly in each league at a time when each had its own devoted fans that didn't fully appreciate what he had done in the other circuit because they didn't follow it as closely. Anyway, he has always been one of my favorite players, although begrudgingly so when he beat my guys back in the day.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by tedzan

trivia quiz

what has frank robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-wwii era ?


ted z

t206 reference
.

mvp - al/nl ?!?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mark

Your answer is a good one, but it's not quite the one I'm looking for.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit. . ..

Totally agree.

[Mark70Z]

I believe F. Robby is under appreciated, undervalued and doesn’t get the credit he likely deserves is because of his personality sometimes hits people the wrong way. Now I’m an O’s fan and Frank is one of my favorite players and each time I met him he was extremely nice to me, but I heard some horror stories from others.

[packs]

He wouldn't even look at people when he was the Nationals manager. I remember being at spring training in 2005 during their inaugural season. The only reason anyone had to be there was him. He blew everyone off like it didn't matter if a new franchise had fans.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

First African American manager in both leagues?

[Paul S]

double post

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mark

Your answer is a good one, but it's not quite the one I'm looking for.

Last guess... How about Frank won the Triple Crown, the Most Valuable Player trophy and a World Series ring in his first year?!?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Last guess... How about Frank won the Triple Crown, the Most Valuable Player trophy and a World Series ring in his first year?!?

1966 was not exactly his first year...

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

1966 was not exactly his first year...

Ha! First year switching to the AL (left something out...)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Ha! First year switching to the AL (left something out...)

One of the best, or worst, trades in history depending on your perspective.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mark70Z

Your response in post #254 here serves as a hint to the answer to this Quiz.
.

[JollyElm]

Who is a person who has never been in my kitchen?

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

one of the best, or worst, trades in history depending on your perspective.

best! 😃

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mark70Z

Your response in post #254 here serves as a hint to the answer to this Quiz.
.

ROY MVP and WS MVP.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

ROY MVP and WS MVP.

Don't think that's what he's looking for---see Johnny Bench.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Don't think that's what he's looking for---see Johnny Bench.

Oh yeah I forgot he was ROY duh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Something to do with what he did in both leagues then. Well, he was a 6 time all star selection in each. Had over 1000 hits in each (probably not unique there, Griffey). Did he hit 250 HR in the AL, I am sure he did it in the NL? And I doubt Griffey got to 250 in the NL.

[Section103]

Whether he belongs or not, I find it troublesome that one could be making his way in or out of a status some 46 years after their death. I get the need for time to pass to truly reflect on a total playing career and how it compares historically (although some wouldnt even agree with that suggestion); but beyond some point in time it seems like lore and revisionist history start to take over.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Many top-10 lists look similar to this, with all 10 having played in the last 100 years yet only 1 (sometimes 2) has played in the last 50 years. Were ball players really that much better in the early-mid 20th century? Or do we tend to inflate the legacies those players left behind? In 50 years from now, will Maddux and Clemens and Pedro and Randy Johnson and Arod sneak into these lists? Or have we been watching bad baseball the past 50 years?

sorry to get off-topic, just making an observation

No, it's ok. Interesting point. I've noticed it, too.

After my list I had that point about guys I seriously considered for the top ten list.

Cy Young is really hard to keep off, but I'd like to have seen him pitch in the live ball era.

Eddie Collins is just outside my top ten.

Two of the modern era guys I struggled to keep off were Mike Schmidt and Johnny Bench. Bench doesn't have the WAR of the others, but he's one of those guys where I don't feel the numbers tell the whole story. I just can't help but feel they're low.

Consider his 1970 season. '70 was a bit of an outlier for the National League-4.52 runs were scored per game; league average for the six years before and after were 3.91 and 4.04, respectively. So Bench's offensive numbers appear a tick more impressive than they would have in any of those other 12 seasons.

He played 158 games (139 as a catcher), hit .293, scored 97 runs, had 35 doubles, 4 triples, 45 home runs, 148 RBI, 355 total bases, and slashed .345/.587/.932, good for a 141 OPS +.

He was an All Star, won the Gold Glove (1.8 dWAR), and NL MVP. Yet, that's only worth 7.4 WAR (per BBR)?

How many catchers not named Mike Piazza get 84 extra base hits in a season? Oh wait, Piazza's best was 73 XBH.

In 219 PAs with runners in scoring position, Bench hit .318 with 104 RBI and a 1.071 OPS. That's insane! He had a .990 OPS with men on. .319 with a .995 OPS in high leverage situations. .304 with a .970 OPS in medium leverage situations.

And he was only worth 7.4 wins? I also feel his 1972 season, where he's awarded an 8.6 WAR, is low. His average was lower-.270-but, he walked 100 times. He hit 40 home runs, drove in 125. Slashed .379/.541/.920. His OPS + is 166. All Star, Gold Glove and MVP again.

Joe Morgan is another I have a hard time keeping off. First off, the guy was a walking machine. 1,865 free passes in his career. He hit .271 career, and when he swung the bat, he could mash. Remember, that's an era of low scoring. Between '72 and '76, Morgan hit .303, averaged 113 runs scored, 22 home runs, 85 RBI, 62 stolen bases, 118 walks, slashing .431/.499/.930 with a 163 OPS+. That's his actual averages, not 162 game averages. And, he averaged 9.6 WAR per season for those five years. He had five other All Star caliber seasons outside that five year period (that being WAR of 5+), but during that half decade, he was historically good with WARs of 9.3, 9.3, 8.6, 11.0, and 9.6.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh yeah I forgot he was ROY duh.

See also, Pete Rose

[hedgefund96]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

See also, Pete Rose

If we had a boy I would have LOVED him to have the drive and determination that Pete had. He always ran out walks and homeruns...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Running out walks and home runs is self-aggrandizing. Pete to a "T." It screams "look at me." Taking the extra base, advancing on pop flies, hustling in the field means something, the rest of it is for show.

[Edward]

Clemente's death, and circumstances surrounding, elevated his standing beyond statistical delineation.
Apart from that, I was 8 and had a Clemente 73 Topps and thought I was special.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered.

Yes, but Clemente played a lot less games per year. Robinson should get credit for taking the field more often.

That said as a nine year old baseball fan in 1971, what Clemente did in the 1971 WS (hitting, running, fielding and of course his arm) and how he did it (duende) was simply amazing. After that he was one of my favorites

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

I will continue this Trivia Quiz regarding Frank Robby till this evening....or, until some one has the answer I am looking for.


In the early 1970's, we would drive down to Bradenton (Florida) to visit my in-laws. My wife's Grandfather, Chris, had tickets to the Pirates' Spring training games at Bradenton. In 1972,
our seats were near the field, midway between 1st base and the Foul pole. When Roberto came out to Right field, he would first come over to the stands and converse with many of us.
He was such a really friendly guy. And, it was a pleasure to see him play at close range.... fielding his position and making some great throws to cut-off runners.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mark McGwire.
Vlad Guerrero.
Randy Johnson.

[howard38]

[QUL="htt

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Jim Bunning for my money. But Randy Johnson certainly could make a claim. Also one could be a wise guy and pick anyone who had similar bad statistics in both leagues. That would technically fill the criterion of equal success in both leagues, even if it was "none"

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.

The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you.

I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in
the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did.

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Gaylord Perry

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark McGwire.
Vlad Guerrero.
Randy Johnson.

Peter

Vlad Guerrero is certainly a good choice.

I would have included Mark McGwire in this "elite club", but for his PED problem.

I forgot to qualify that I was referring only to "BB players" (and not pitchers).
I guess this was implied by the example of Frank Robinson. Anyhow, I should
have been more specific. Sorry about this....my bad.

Of course....Randy Johnson would certainly be in a Pitcher's "elite club". Along
with Jim Bunning, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

He's in year 11, not 15, but Max Scherzer. Led AL in wins twice and won a Cy Young. Switched to the NL and has now won two Cy Youngs in the NL.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

He was an All Star, won the Gold Glove (1.8 dWAR), and NL MVP. Yet, that's only worth 7.4 WAR (per BBR)?

How many catchers not named Mike Piazza get 84 extra base hits in a season? Oh wait, Piazza's best was 73 XBH.

In 219 PAs with runners in scoring position, Bench hit .318 with 104 RBI and a 1.071 OPS. That's insane! He had a .990 OPS with men on. .319 with a .995 OPS in high leverage situations. .304 with a .970 OPS in medium leverage situations.

And he was only worth 7.4 wins? I also feel his 1972 season, where he's awarded an 8.6 WAR, is low. His average was lower-.270-but, he walked 100 times. He hit 40 home runs, drove in 125. Slashed .379/.541/.920. His OPS + is 166. All Star, Gold Glove and MVP again.

Joe Morgan is another I have a hard time keeping off. First off, the guy was a walking machine. 1,865 free passes in his career. He hit .271 career, and when he swung the bat, he could mash. Remember, that's an era of low scoring. Between '72 and '76, Morgan hit .303, averaged 113 runs scored, 22 home runs, 85 RBI, 62 stolen bases, 118 walks, slashing .431/.499/.930 with a 163 OPS+. That's his actual averages, not 162 game averages. And, he averaged 9.6 WAR per season for those five years. He had five other All Star caliber seasons outside that five year period (that being WAR of 5+), but during that half decade, he was historically good with WARs of 9.3, 9.3, 8.6, 11.0, and 9.6.

This is the problem I have with WAR. The numbers seem so completely random at times. And there are some guys that seem to just tick all the right boxes for WAR and end up with a number that doesn't pass the smell test. To use a guy mentioned earlier in this thread - Gene Tenace in 1974 hit .211 with an OPS of .775. WAR of 5.0. Really?

Joe Morgan was a great player - for about 5 years anyway - and WAR just loves him. He ticks all the right boxes. But a WAR of 11.0 in 1975? OK. But then he goes out and improves in 1976 and his WAR *drops* to 9.6. Sure thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pitching WAR is weird too. Fangraphs has Trevor Bauer as the best pitcher in baseball, even though (for example) his BABIP against is higher than the rest of the top 10. It also ranks Jon Gray with an ERA of 5.5 as the 12th best pitcher.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is the problem I have with WAR. The numbers seem so completely random at times. And there are some guys that seem to just tick all the right boxes for WAR and end up with a number that doesn't pass the smell test. To use a guy mentioned earlier in this thread - Gene Tenace in 1974 hit .211 with an OPS of .775. WAR of 5.0. Really?

Joe Morgan was a great player - for about 5 years anyway - and WAR just loves him. He ticks all the right boxes. But a WAR of 11.0 in 1975? OK. But then he goes out and improves in 1976 and his WAR *drops* to 9.6. Sure thing.

Agree with everything you just said.

The variance in his WAR between 1975 and 1976 appears due to defensive regression. He went from a 2.0 dWAR to a 0.4. But he won the Gold Glove both years, so the guys watching the games didn't see a precipitous drop off in his defense.

Sometimes I love WAR, but sometimes I hate it. I don't think there's ever been a more divisive metric in baseball. It's great for comparing players within one era, but I find it maddeningly (is that even a word?) flawed when you compare players from even one generation apart. And the defensive component of it....let me just say I don't get it, and I'll walk away.

The very fact that WAR is computed differently by BBR and Fangraphs only adds to my nervous tick. When it comes to statistical analysis, I'm a very precise guy (shocking, right?). I don't like that I have to qualify which site I'm taking my information from when entering into a discussion. The talking heads at BBR and Fangraphs need to lock themselves in a room, agree upon one formula, and then blow smoke for the world to see, like when the Pope has been named by the College of Cardinals.

[the 'stache]

Though his stay in the second league (the NL) was brief because of when he switched in his career, I think it's safe to say Roy Halladay had real success in both leagues. He won a Cy Young, then finished 2nd, 3rd, and 5th place twice in other seasons. He moved to the NL with the Phillies, and didn't miss a beat. Won the 2010 Cy Young, and finished second the next season.

From 2002 to 2011, he was about as good as you could get in baseball. 170-75, 2.94 ERA (with an impressive 148 ERA+), 63 complete games, 18 shut outs, 1,699 Ks against 372 BBs in 2,194 IP. Not a large post season resume, but a 2.37 ERA across 5 starts including only the second no hitter in playoff history, plus a perfect game....2 Cy Youngs.

He should get serious consideration for the Hall.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The very fact that WAR is computed differently by BBR and Fangraphs only adds to my nervous tick. When it comes to statistical analysis, I'm a very precise guy (shocking, right?). I don't like that I have to qualify which site I'm taking my information from when entering into a discussion. The talking heads at BBR and Fangraphs need to lock themselves in a room, agree upon one formula, and then blow smoke for the world to see, like when the Pope has been named by the College of Cardinals.

Computed differently and essentially in secret. You can't just punch in some numbers and check their work.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by cammb

Didn't he have a couple of no hitters with all of those ks.

Seven of them, plus a lifetime opponent's BA of .203. Those Angel teams he played on were really pretty bad. Only he and Bob Feller could get away with walking that many batters and perform as they did--that takes "stuff" in spades.

Hi guys,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry guys, but I have to when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?

Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my
Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would
drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark.

OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers......

BA = .313 (1952 - 1964)

RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year)

HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's

18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.)

Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most.

And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then.

I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the
Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game).



Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1
. .




And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics.
You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

+1 in all respects, Ted.

Always good to hear from you,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Do you imagine then guys like Ron Kittle, Dave Kingman, Mickey Tettleton etc are cursing that they were born a generation or two too soon?

Don't forget Rob Deer.

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gallo already has struck out more than DiMaggio did in his career. In just 291 games.

I truly enjoy watching Joey Gallo strike out.

Hi again, Pete,

Larry

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Computed differently and essentially in secret. You can't just punch in some numbers and check their work.

And it makes me nuts!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Don't forget Rob Deer.

Best wishes,

Larry

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Or, Rob Deer. The Brewers always had one of those guys when I was growing up. Gorman Thomas was the first. Nobody in baseball had more homers than Stormin' Gorman's 175 between 1978 and 1982. But he had a 27.5% K rate (and 28.6% for his career). I'll never understand how he could play center field. He wasn't exactly swift of foot. He looked like a weekend softball player. BBR lists him at 6'2" 210 lbs. I think that second number was being a little generous. Deer stepped in when Gorman left town. 215 home runs between '86 and '93 for Milwaukee, and a few years in Detroit. He also K'd 1,298 times in 3,645 ABs-a whopping 35.6%.

I watched Deer whiff many times before leaving for Texas.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And it makes me nuts!

Add it to the long list of things, right?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Add it to the long list of things, right?

Hey now! I'm nuts in a fun way, not a "get the straight jacket, Uncle Wilbur is playing Duck Duck Goose with his imaginary friends again" way.