Issue with lot a lot description - What is a "loose" spine?

[Bugsy]

I won a program in a recent auction. This is how they described it:

"Historic program has condition issues, including slight chipping, a loose spine and general wear. This still displays reasonably well, however."

What should I have expected to receive? My assumption was that the spine wasn't great. Probably loose, maybe a partial split on the spine or detached cover. This is what I received. There is no spine anymore. Every page is split.

Were my expectations wrong or did the house not give this an accurate write-up?

Thanks.

Chris

[timn1]

I would have read "loose spine" exactly as you did, Chris. Not as "every page separated"

[packs]

Yeah, loose spine to me indicates that the program is still in tact. An accurate description would have said the pages had separated from the spine.

[jim]

from whom did you purchase this?
jim

[Steve D]

I agree with the previous responses.

To me, it should have been described as either "spine separated" or "spine detached", at the minimum.

Steve

[Fballguy]

Curious if there were pictures in the auction listing? Did it appear intact?

[iwantitiwinit]

No doubt you're right but when someone cites, "has condition issues", my expectations would be low. If I hadn't paid too much I'd just let it go.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

No doubt you're right but when someone cites, "has condition issues", my expectations would be low. If I hadn't paid too much I'd just let it go.

Agreed. More specifically, it says "has condition issues, including .... "

However, I agree that loose pages is more than a loose spine.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

A loose spine, in book collecting, has a very specific meaning, a bunch of unattached pages ain't it.

[Bugsy]

Here is the auction photo.

[Bugsy]

And the interior.

You can see the staples from the spine in this photo, so I assumed the cover was loose. I would not have even minded if it had just been the cover that had been split or that the pages were detached from the staples, but every single page with the exception of the center page is split.

[JollyElm]

Pure deception. That photo appears to be a used, but perfectly intact, item. You should be pissed.

[Jobu]

+1

That is most definitely NOT a loose spine. A loose spine is a bound item that has a little play along the binding. This is no longer a bound item.

Unlike my women, I do not like my book spines to be loose.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Pure deception. That photo appears to be a used, but perfectly intact, item. You should be pissed.

[D. Bergin]

Fragile year for paper items. The tail end of the paper drive era after WWII had ended and lower quality high acid content paper was still in widespread use.

Is it possible the pages became separated in shipping?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Fragile year for paper items. The tail end of the paper drive era after WWII had ended and lower quality high acid content paper was still in widespread use.

Is it possible the pages became separated in shipping?

That is a good point and I honestly don't know. It was in a rigid toploader, with cardboard on either side, and shipped in a bubble mailer. The package itself looked completely fine...which makes me wonder if the shipping company (can't remember if it was UPS or USPS) would consider the shipment damaged. Would they reject the claim that it was damaged in transit?

[DaveW]

I would say that both the book and the seller were spineless

[Jason19th]

I think the use of the word spine is problematic. I don't think that a program would really have a spine. A spine is the covering of a books binding and the binding is made up of signatures or gathering of folded paper which are then
Sewn into the binding
It would have been better to simple say all pages loose and separated at fold

[doug.goodman]

I won most of the other lots in that auction, with no similar issues when they all showed up. Like Dave, my initial thought is that it was damaged in shipping, but all of the programs I won that were individually packaged were packed in a comic bag / with a board, with the flap taped, and then placed in a top loader, and then wrapped in bubblewrap, and then placed in a small box, and then placed in a larger box with packing peanuts. Very, very secure packing.

Sorry this happened to your item.

Doug


PS - I am a fan of the word "spine" when referencing the condition of my programs, which have sometimes been folded (not at the "spine") and put in a pocket at some point in their lifetime.

PPS - If I didn't already have a program from that game, there is a chance that I would have outbid you and won that auction, and if I had, I would be contacting the auction house about a refund.

[Shoeless Moe]

Was there some significance to the game its from? Not that that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but is it really historic as you described in your initial post or just a regular season game?

[D. Bergin]

If the shipping process didn't do that, very likely it could have been separated in the process of packing, the paper appears that fragile.

Blame may lie in the shipping department of wherever that item came from. Either way, it's not in the condition anymore that it was pictured in, and if you paid any amount of money for it that you are not comfortable with having that particular program in that condition, you should request a refund and shipping costs if they want it back.

[khkco4bls]

That's bs.....

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Was there some significance to the game its from? Not that that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but is it really historic as you described in your initial post or just a regular season game?

Jackie's first career hit

[conor912]

Total BS. Something happened to that program between the time it was photoed for auction and the time you got it. Look at the left edge in the listing photo and the left edge now. There's a chuck above the middle staple gone and both right corners are missing. Personally, I would want every cent back.

[jerseygary]

I collect 1920's-40's scorecards and have hundreds of these Harry M. Stevens produced scorecards. They were printed on cheap paper and if not stored in ideal conditions over the decades deteriorated into a very brittle state. Some edges almost crumble in your hands. Like one of the members already said, the war and immediately postwar years saw particularly poor paper being made due to rationing.

That said, the description was misleading. As brittle as these things are, it's hard to imagine the handling that went on between the photograph of the interior scorecard section and when it arrived in the mail. Even if it did completely separate and completely fall apart somewhere in the handling process, you should have been notified before it was shipped to you.

I'd like to think the writer/auction house was ignorant of the correct terms used to describe the condition of books and ephemera. If that's not the case they were at fault and you should get your money back. While the hobby is not exactly flooded with millions of Jackie Robinson first hit scorecards, you shouldn't have too hard of a problem locating one in better condition with a more accurate description.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Was there some significance to the game its from?

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Jackie's first career hit

If the separated pages really bother you, here's a suggestion.

If doing so will not harm the pages, why not scan them?

Then, if you can't get a refund, sell the program yourself "as is" (of course, with full disclosure about its actual condition). This way you'll be able to recoup some, if not all, of the cost, and you'll still be able to "have" the program until a better copy comes along.

[Bugsy]

Thank you for all of the thoughtful responses. Just as a quick update, I have been in contact with the auction house and am working on a return right now. They are going to make a damaged in shipment claim.

Thanks again!

Chris