1929 Kashin R316: any examples of back stamps?

[Baseball Bob]

FURTHER TO THE THREAD....ANY EXAMPLES OF BACKSTAMPS LIKE LEON POSTED BELOW?

Howdy pre-war community! My name is Eric Schmidtke, and I am doing research on the above titled set.

I have done quite a bit of research, but at this stage I am stuck on several questions, and I need help. If you prefer to answer me via private message, my email is ericschmidtke@yahoo.com.

First of all, do you have any idea who Kashin Publications were? I can find no record of them anywhere in cyberspace. I have checked archives in NYC and basically searched all over with no results. Is it possible that they were a subsidiary of another company (say maybe Spalding)? They seem to have only existed for a couple of years. I am aware that they produced the R315 and probably the W554 and W553 sets, as well as the Movie Stars set. The Leader Novelty set may also be connected to them somehow since the photos used are essentially identical.

How were the cards sold, and for how much? This is a multi-part question, and it relates to the "short prints".
The colored boxes are clearly the primary mechanism used for marketing, but I have also heard allusions to sales in single card packs, and seen one example sold on the web that purported to be one of these, although the item had no identifying marks on it and looked hand-made to me. Were the cards marketed in the colored boxes on store shelves like that, or were they dispensed from a machine? I saw the example Leon posted on this website some time ago of the promotional stamp on one, so they seems to have had some use in that capacity. Have you ever seen any other forms of packaging? Would these cards perhaps have been sold mail-order, since the boxes are not printed with retail prices?

It seems to me that Kashin was a small enough outfit that they probably did not do the physical printing themselves. They probably obtained their images from a middleman press agency, as they are clearly not made from the original Conlon negatives. What do you think?

Do you know the geographic extent of the marketing? I know the "made in USA" stamps indicate they sold in Canada, but were sales limited to the Northeast?

Have you ever seen any print advertising for these cards in old newspapers or magazines?

I have done considerable research to constrain the issue timing and I think I have that nailed, but would like to hear you opinions.

Lastly, what do you know about the origin of the "short prints" Seibold, Haines, Hadley and Todt? I have read the "substitution theory"; that Kashin created a 100 card set with no Ruth, then decide to add a Ruth to each box and the short prints were the cards that got tossed. I have also seen the idea that the single card sales included the short prints and they were discontinued prior to the colored boxes being issued. I struggle to understand why a company selling baseball cards would even think of not including a Ruth card, so the substitution theory bothers me. I think it might have something to do with the printing and packaging processes, but I don't know enough about that yet.

Lastly, why would many of the greatest stars (say Pipgras, Sisler, Cochrane, etc.) be omitted in favor of lesser known players?

Wherever possible, if you can provide a reference(s) for your information that would be of great help to me. If you don't know the answer to a question but know someone who might, please pass me their contact info.

All the best to all of you out there who, like me, find this to be an awesome set!

Regards
Eric

[Leon]

Hi Eric
As we discussed there is limited interest in the set but there are some neat cards in it. I will look up some more info soon but here is a scan from stuff from my last collection...

[Shoebox]

Hope perhaps you can find further information as I am fond of the premiums and lesser regarded sets of the era.

My own example:

[Baseball Bob]

Thanks guys for your responses - anyone else out there have any info?

[ls7plus]

Sorry I don't have any background info on Kashin Publications, but there are indeed some neat cards in the set, including a Mel Ott rookie and early cards of other HOF'er's. The Ruth is a card that can be picked up for a reasonable price, as my info is that there were four times the Ruth's printed, compared to the other cards (the cards, per the Standard Catalog, came in a 25-card boxed set, with, I believe, 101 cards total, but there was a Babe in every such box).

Good luck on your endeavors with the set,

Larry

[nolemmings]

Have you checked with the folks on the non-sports vintage cards side? They may have developed info chasing the movie stars set. I note from a few minutes of google research that the movie star set for some reason contained 96 cards, distributed in four different colored boxes like the baseball players. Odd that they would not round up and include an additional 4 actors/actresses. I also saw where the boxes for that set can be found with "Kashin Publishing Company" on the back bottom instead of "Kashin Publications", and that the former likely came first and does not mention made in USA.
Good luck.

[Baseball Bob]

Yes, it is true that the movie stars set is only 96 cards. I have pondered long and hard about why the set was limited to 25 baseball cards per box, and why the "short prints" were omitted from the listings on the box backs. Long story short, I have not yet found the Rosetta Stone that explains it. Still more research to do!
Some of the explanation may have to do with whether there really were single card sales prior to the boxed sales. I have seen one auction listing purporting to have a "single card holder" but the photo showed no company markings and it looked kind of home-made. If the cards were sold singly first, then the short prints could be better explained.
Thanks
Eric

[nolemmings]

What I find strange is that the box size changed or at least the set changed from 96 to 100 when going from movie to baseball stars. Of course the baseball cards could have come first and then the set size reduced, but it's hard to believe that they could not come up with 4 more stars to keep the set size the same.

I brought up the change in company name on the back of the box to suggest what you likely already believe-that there was more than one printing of the cards. In that case, it's possible they did not have Ruth's blessing when the set first came out, and it was only after he gave his approval that his cards supplanted the 4 so-called short prints. I collect m101-4 and m101-5, and when the earlier of these was issued, it did not include Ty Cobb, which seems ridiculous. It could not realistically be considered an oversight, but rather some difficulty that caused the omission. The same might hold for the Ruth and R316, and might explain the "substitution" theory. Still, I recall from prior threads and posts from those who collect this set (I do not) that one of the four short prints--Todt?--is much more plentiful than the others; if so, one wonders why that would be so if all four were pulled evenly to make room for Ruth.

Finally, if you want a long shot, maybe look into Maurice Kashin. He was on Broadway in the early part of the last century, then bought and/or operated the Kashin Theatre in Montreal. An account of his death in 1946 said that he spent the last 20 years of his life in advertising. So there's a New York, theater and advertising connection. We know that some r316s (or cards of the same design and size) carry ads for theaters on the back. Felix Mendelsohn, the progenitor of m101-4/5, was involved in a variety of activities in the teens, including pushing arcade games. Maybe this Kashin was of the same spirit. Like I said it's a longshot, but who knows?

[Baseball Bob]

Todd
Great suggestions! The connection to the theatres is a cool lead. I had not heard of the actor Kashin you identified either. The mystery deepens! Interestingly, the theater back stamp example that Leon posted is from Chicago...
Yes, the Todt card is POP 17 (SGC+PSA) which is roughly three times as many as the Haines, Seibold or Hadley, and I have another I am going to get graded soon. I like the idea that maybe they started issuing without Ruth due to a contract or other snag. I have also looked into the source of the photos and the vast majority of them are readily traceable to Conlon. Oddly, the Ruth photo is not. I have been unable to locate the source. This may tie to the late issue idea as well.
Cheers
Eric

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Baseball Bob

Todd
Great suggestions! The connection to the theatres is a cool lead. I had not heard of the actor Kashin you identified either. The mystery deepens! Interestingly, the theater back stamp example that Leon posted is from Chicago...
Yes, the Todt card is POP 17 (SGC+PSA) which is roughly three times as many as the Haines, Seibold or Hadley, and I have another I am going to get graded soon. I like the idea that maybe they started issuing without Ruth due to a contract or other snag. I have also looked into the source of the photos and the vast majority of them are readily traceable to Conlon. Oddly, the Ruth photo is not. I have been unable to locate the source. This may tie to the late issue idea as well.
Cheers
Eric

Hi Eric
I wish I could help more but what has been discussed is probably more than I have known to start with. Here are a few scans from the collection or ex collection.....Good luck with everything.

[Baseball Bob]

Still waiting to hear from Jeff Britton (Luxury Ballcards) - one of the biggest R316 enthusiasts out there......c'mon back, Jeff!

Regards
Eric

[Baseball Bob]

Thanks, Leon, for those nice examples.

Anyone else have any examples of the colored boxes or the back stamped variety cards?

Thanks,
Eric

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Eric
I wish I could help more but what has been discussed is probably more than I have known to start with. Here are a few scans from the collection or ex collection.....Good luck with everything.

Great stuff, as always, Leon!

Hope your new collection is going very well,

Larry

[glenv]

My only two:

r312rialto_theater_ft.jpg r312rialto_theater_bk.jpg

r316jamaica_ruth_ft.jpg r316jamaica_ruth_bk.jpg

[DaveW]

Good luck with your research, I've always liked the kashin cards. I have a couple with the Douglas Park back stamp like Leon's example. As for the Ruth card, I seem to remember a post here where somebody had the original photo that it was made from. Not sure how you would find it, maybe search for Ruth Photo or Ruth Kashin Photo - good luck.

[DaveW]

Another interesting thing. The Ruth card shown above with the Jamaica Theater back shows movies that were released in 1933 - implying that these cards were used 4 years after their 1929 issue. Maybe that's how they got rid of excess inventory?
Also, the card with the Morton Theater back also shows a 1933 movie (the Walter Huston movie)

[Baseball Bob]

Awesome examples - many thanks for posting and for the additional info.
Best Regards,
Eric

[leftygrove10]

I got these from the same guy who sold Leon his card.

[PowderedH2O]

Any reason why Kashin got an "R" designation in the catalog? It doesn't appear to be a product that had gum involved, at least not from the containers that have been shown in the photos.

[Baseball Bob]

Thanks, all for these excellent examples. Any others out there?

Thanks,
Eric

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Any reason why Kashin got an "R" designation in the catalog? It doesn't appear to be a product that had gum involved, at least not from the containers that have been shown in the photos.

He probably thought they were from (or associated with) an early candy or gum series or he made a mistake. He will always be the Grandfather of the Hobby but he was still
human.

edited to add a tidbit, in his ACC he did say, under the R designation,

SPORTS ISSUES
Most of the R305 - R318 sets are anonymous

That gives us a clue, without further research, he was unaware of where they came from. In his last version of the ACC ( I will have to check the previous ones) he didn't use the name "Kashin" only "Portraits in Action" ...."3 1/2 x 4 1/2"... black and white. .

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Any reason why Kashin got an "R" designation in the catalog? It doesn't appear to be a product that had gum involved, at least not from the containers that have been shown in the photos.

Interesting question. These would have been issued in the area where Burdick lived and at a time when he was well into collecting--they likely were not obscure or unknown to him.

I didn't see Leon's last post--maybe Burdick didn't know anything about these, which seems strange to me.