1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[marcdelpercio]

Okay, I have finally sorted through my entire lot and have quite a few new additions to the list. I can confirm the following additions:

Type 1:

Mays


Type 2:

Barber
Burns (Cincinnati)
Bush
Cutshaw
Dykes (batting)
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Heilman
Hubbell
W. Johnson
Kerr
Kopf
Bob Meusel
Olson


Type 2 Reversed:

Burns (Cincinnati)
Coveleskie
Cunningham
Chick Fewster
Griffith
Byron Harris
Heilman
Kelly
Liebold
Milan
Neale
Oeschger
O'Farrell
Rapp
Scott
Sewell
Shannon
Stock (batting)
Wambsgauss
Witt

Subjects with all three backs:

Chick Fewster
Heilman

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Marc for all the great updates to the back lists. I love the fact that with the Mays we now know the Type 1 backs are available for every card in the set. It also is looking more likely that the 2 Reversed backs might, with more input and observation, also span the entire set. I will update the lists in a day or two, and feel free to chime in.

Brian

[marcdelpercio]

I wonder if maybe all of the backs are available across the full run but perhaps the regular Type 2 backs were short printed as they certainly appear to be the least common of the three variations. My thought is that there may have been three full printings of the set, one with each of the backs, but the Type 2 and Type 2 reversed were possibly done later and in smaller quantities. The only thing that makes me question that is the inclusion of the few players with two different poses. It would seem odd that they would have two cards of some of the players, all of whom are pretty non-descript. However, both Kilduff poses are found with the Type 2, both Snyders with the Type 2, and both Stocks with the Type 2 reversed, so obviously those were printed in the same run.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks to Marc's input, not only have all 120 cards been verified to have the Type 1 back, but we have been able to add substantially to the verified Type 2 and Type 2 reversed listings. I have updated the listings below.

Brian


Type 1 backs have been verified for all 120 cards.


'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (46 currently):

G.C. Alexander
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jimmy Dykes (batting)
"Red" Faber
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston
Dick Kerr
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Walter "Rabbit" Maranville
Bob Meusel
Ivan Olson
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Wally Pipp
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Reversed Type 2 backs verified (88 currently):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
George Burns (Cincinnati)
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Eddie Collins
John Collins
S. Covaleskie
Walton Cruise
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Chick Fewster
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Walter Gerber
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Tommy Griffith
Heinie Groh
Byron Harris
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Claude Hendrix
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbert Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Geo. "Bingo" Kelly
Larry Kopf
Harry Leibold
H.B. Leonard
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
J.C. Milan
Earl Neale
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Joe Oeschger
Robert O'Farrell
Ivan Olson
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derill Pratt
Goldie Rapp
Edgar Rice
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Joe Sewell
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (batting)
Milton Stock (fielding)
Wm. Wambsgauss
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
Lawton Witt
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Subjects that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above...but to make it easier (22 total):

George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Chick Fewster
Walter Gerber
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Ivan Olson
Wally Pipp
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)

[Leon]

Great info Brian et al..... Thanks for sharing on a fairly common but still obscure issue.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks to Marc's input, not only have all 120 cards been verified to have the Type 1 back, but we have been able to add substantially to the verified Type 2 and Type 2 reversed listings. I have updated the listings below.

Brian


Type 1 backs have been verified for all 120 cards.


'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (43 currently):

G.C. Alexander
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jimmy Dykes (batting)
"Red" Faber
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston
Dick Kerr
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Bob Meusel
Ivan Olson
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Reversed Type 2 backs verified (83 currently):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
George Burns (Cincinnati)
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Eddie Collins
John Collins
S. Covaleskie
Walton Cruise
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Chick Fewster
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Tommy Griffith
Heinie Groh
Byron Harris
Harry Heilman
Claude Hendrix
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbert Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Geo. "Bingo" Kelly
Larry Kopf
Harry Leibold
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
J.C. Milan
Earl Neale
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Joe Oeschger
Robert O'Farrell
Ivan Olson
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derill Pratt
Goldie Rapp
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Joe Sewell
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (batting)
Milton Stock (fielding)
Wm. Wambsgauss
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
Lawton Witt
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Subjects that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above...but to make it easier (16 total):

George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Chick Fewster
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Walter Johnson
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Ivan Olson
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)

[brianp-beme]

Looking at the E220 thread that Rhett provided a link for and the listings of players that have been verified in each of the 3 different back styles shown, it appears that Rhett's theory that the E220 set is likely a 1922 issue is accurate, as one of the cards that he references as started in 1922 with the team identified on his card (George Burns - Cincinnati) is seen with all three back types.

For example it is possible that the Type 1 back, which all 120 cards have been identified as existing, was partially issued in 1921 and then in 1922 (which might account for the multiple poses seen in the set of some players, like Pete Kilduff bending and Pete Kilduff leaping, etc.). I think 1923 is not a likely date, but with the handful of cards that Rhett identified as having ended their careers in 1920 with the team identified on their cards, that we can't rule out a multi-year issue of this set (1921 +1922).

Brian

[grandcards]

This question had been nagging me for a few years when I recently stumbled upon this thread.

I just found it to be a remarkable coincidence that two similarly named companies from the same City would make almost identical card sets but that one would be a full year earlier than the other. Not that it wasn't possible, but it just seemed strange, and I wondered whether the two companies were maybe affiliated and released similar cards under different brands.

Anyway, I tried to find some information on the companies themselves and, maybe this is a doozy?

From page 681 from the History of Lancaster County, PA

In case the image doesn't come through, two points:

1. National Caramel Company wasn't incorporated until May 1921
2. The founders of National Caramel were both Executives at American Caramel until they left and started the competitor in 1921.

Now, does this mean that E220 wasn't a 1921 release? No, but boy it sure does tighten up that window.

It may also give insight into the similarities behind the cards. Not unreasonable to think that these American Caramel executives were well aware of the E121 cards, knew what it took to design and produce and simply took that concept with them over to National Caramel for their own E220. That would start to explain the visual/design similarities between the two sets.

Less charitably: I don't think it is a stretch to say that National Caramel stole the American Caramel idea -- and very possibly photos, designs, printers etc. -- and copied it for themselves.

This assumption would make it especially odd that a player like Stan Coveleski would have a card with identical photos in E121-120 and E220 but NOT E121-80. Same with Herb Pennock. I find it far more likely that those E121-120 cards were issued in the same year as E220, on the basis that the American Caramel Executives that were involved with the one left the company and moved to the other. It certainly didn't happen the other way around.

Anyway, food for thought (or something to chew on ) in an old thread.

[rhettyeakley]

Thanks for chiming in on this older thread.

Very interesting information about the ties between the American Caramel Co and National Caramel Co. that I had never heard before.

[brianp-beme]

Nice background info on the (previously not identified?) National and American Caramel connection. To me everything still points, as Rhett originally suggested, to a 1922 issue date.

I will follow this post with an updated verified back list, with scans illustrating the three backs as a reminder, and will include a new category listing the handful of cards that still only have one back verified, which includes a couple of big name stars.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

As promised, here is the updated confirmed back variation list. But first, as a reminder, are the three various backs, shown left to right as Type 1 ('B' of 'BALL' in 2nd line of text underneath 'p' of 'pictures' in the first line), Type 2 (same 'B' under 'i' of 'pictures) and Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) (text reads bottom to top on back, and like regular Type 2, the 'B' is under the 'i'):

E220hollachertrio 001 (800x450).jpg

e220hollachertriobacks 002 (800x450).jpg


And here are the updated lists, with new additions in bold (all Type 3), and a new category ("Cards only seen in Type 1"), which surprisingly has a couple of bigger name players that one would figure that all existing backs would have already been identified. Edit to identify that Pat found 4 of the 6 on the list, including the Cobb and Speaker. Because of this I am thinking it likely that the other two will be verified...?


Type 1 - backs have been verified for all 120 cards.


'Regular' Type 2 - verified backs (47* currently):

G.C. Alexander
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jimmy Dykes (batting)
"Red" Faber
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston
Dick Kerr
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Walter "Rabbit" Maranville
Bob Meusel
Bob O'Farrell*
Ivan Olson
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Wally Pipp
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) - verified backs (100* currently):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
George Burns (Cincinnati)
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
John Collins
S. Covaleskie
Walton Cruise
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Chick Fewster
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Walter Gerber
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Tommy Griffith
Charles Grimm*
Heinie Groh
Byron Harris
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Claude Hendrix
Walt Henline
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbert Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston*
Joe Judge
Geo. "Bingo" Kelly
Pete Kilduff (bending down)*
Larry Kopf
Harry Leibold
H.B. Leonard
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Bob Meusel*
Emil Meusel
J.C. Milan
Earl Neale
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Joe Oeschger
Robert O'Farrell
Ivan Olson
Geo. Paskert
Herb Pennock
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derill Pratt
Goldie Rapp
Edgar Rice
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Wally Schang
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Joe Sewell
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Tris Speaker
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (batting)
Milton Stock (fielding)
Wm. Wambsgauss
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
Ivy Wingo*
Lawton Witt
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Cards that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above (28* total):

George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Chick Fewster
Walter Gerber
Charles Grimm*
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston*
Pete Kilduff (bending down)*
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Bob Meusel*
Bob O'Farrell*
Ivan Olson
Geo. Paskert
Wally Pipp
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)


Cards that currently have only a Type 1 back verified:

Jim Bagby
Ivy Wingo *

The below were verified by Pat with having a Type 3 back in the post following this one:

Ty Cobb
Herb Pennock
Wally Schang
Tris Speaker



Still looking for additional back verifications, your help as always will be appreciated.


Brian

[Pat R]

Brian, I don't know the set so I'm not sure if all of these are authentic but if they are comparing the fronts to the back scans I believe they are all type 3's.

E220 Cobb 3.jpg

E220 Pennock 3 or 2.jpg

E220 Schang 3.jpg

E220 Speaker 3.jpg

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Brian, I don't know the set so I'm not sure if all of these are authentic but if they are comparing the fronts to the back scans I believe they are all type 3's.

Hi Pat, fantastic, thanks! I have never really dived into scouring the internet for E220 back variations, as I have just haphazardly/sporadically done so over the years. All those cards look good and are the Type 3 (or Type 2 Reversed...I may have been inconsistently haphazard/sporadic about the back type designation over the years as well).

I will update the list on the previous post. Now just to find the Wingo and Bagby with a Type 2 or Type 3 back (keep in mind that all E220 Bagby cards have Bagby's last name incorrectly spelled as Bagbyk, which, by the way, is my all-time favorite misspelled name on a card).

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Updated post #60 with additions/changes to the lists, current to 5/31/24. New additions are noted with both bold type AND an '*'.

Brian

[paul]

Has anyone else noticed that the E220 Frisch lists him as a third baseman, just like the 1921 E121-80, but unlike the 1922 E121-120? This could be evidence of a 1921 issue date. But it's pretty weak evidence compared to the information Rhett presented 14 years ago, so I'm still sticking to Rhett's 1922 date.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by paul

Has anyone else noticed that the E220 Frisch lists him as a third baseman, just like the 1921 E121-80, but unlike the 1922 E121-120? This could be evidence of a 1921 issue date. But it's pretty weak evidence compared to the information Rhett presented 14 years ago, so I'm still sticking to Rhett's 1922 date.

Definitely Frisch was almost strictly a 3rd baseman in 1920, and in 1921 and 1922 he played in a significant amount of games at both 2nd base and 3rd base. So definitely I could see that his 1920 season would have pegged him to be listed as a 3rd baseman if produced in 1921. But then again he also played over 60% of his playing time in 1921 at 3rd base, so he was still probably seen as primarily as a 3rd baseman going into the 1922 season.

I also still agree with Rhett's 1922 assessment as well.


1920 3B 109 games

1920 SS 2 games


1921 3B 93 games

1921 2B 61 games


1922 2B 85 games

1922 3B 53 games

1922 SS 1 game


Brian