t213 question

[esd10]

does anyone know if the t213 where made from the same printing plates as the t206?

[ullmandds]

i don't think this information is known...I'd suppose it was possible for maybe type 1 and or 2...but not type 3.

[steve B]

I would have to say no on the type 2 and 3 for sure, and maybe for the type 1but probably not.

I'd have to take a close look at a few type 1s alongside the same subjects from T206 to be sure. And I believe that most T206 subjects were printed from at least 2-3 different sets of plates.

Steve B

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by steve B

I would have to say no on the type 2 and 3 for sure, and maybe for the type 1but probably not.

I'd have to take a close look at a few type 1s alongside the same subjects from T206 to be sure. And I believe that most T206 subjects were printed from at least 2-3 different sets of plates.

Steve B

Probably more than that... Wouldn't each Factory have its own plates?

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Probably more than that... Wouldn't each Factory have its own plates?

I thought the factory numbers referred to where the cards were sent to be packaged with cigarettes, not where they were printed.

[Bocabirdman]

You may be right......... I am old but I wasn't there......

[steve B]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

I thought the factory numbers referred to where the cards were sent to be packaged with cigarettes, not where they were printed.

Yes, the factory numbers are the packing plant, not where they were printed.

Steve B

[RCMcKenzie]

I believe T213-1 is comprised of what they call print groups 2, 5 & 6.(May be wrong on this as I haven't gone thru the whole set). In other words, I'm looking for the Bob Rhoades card w/ glove at chest, not the arm extended one. The paper on the T213-1 is of lower quality/thinner, but they look just like the T206 cards in every other respect...back design/artwork etc...To me, Coupon was just another T206 ad back like Carolina Brights. I started collecting them b/c they used to be cheaper than T206 and my Dad was buying.

[buymycards]

I have never checked the captions on the T213-1. Are they all exactly the same as the T206's?

The T213-2's have many captions that are different than the T206's, and several players have different captions under the same pose. So, I would think that the captions would be printed at the same time as the rest of the card, and that would mean that different plates would have been needed.

The 3 Mowrey's have the same pose, but different captions. Were the cards printed and the captions added later or were these printed from totally different plates?

I don't know anything about printing, so I could be totally wrong.

[Jobu]

I always thouhgt that they used the same plates multiple times. However, I based this on the low quality of the T213-3 images and assumed that they were the result of using the same worn out/poorly stored plates used in T213-2. Admittedly this might be way off base, though it could still be correct with different plates having been used for other issues with T206 images (T206, T213-1, T214, and T215-1&2) and only T213-3 actually reusing old plates.

At the least all of the plates must have been made from the same master images, no?

[buymycards]

Hi Bryan, that is a good thought. The T213-3 Mowrey uses the same pose, but the quality of the printing in much worse.

[tedzan]

The 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON set are derived from an early press run of the 350 series of the T206 set. All 68 subjects are identical in every respect to their T206 "cousins".
These cards were issued in the Spring/Summer of 1910. Note the similarity in the stylistic design of the backs of these T206 advertisements and this COUPON advertisement.....




T213-1 cards differ from T206's only in that they were on printed thinner cardboard stock. Perhaps, because these cards were not intended to serve as cigarette pack STIFFINERS.
This brand was introduced into the market packaged in cartons containing 100's of cigarettes. These cartons were labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes .



The Six Super Prints of the T206 set are shown here with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

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TED Z
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I would have to say no on the type 2 and 3 for sure, and maybe for the type 1but probably not.

I'd have to take a close look at a few type 1s alongside the same subjects from T206 to be sure. And I believe that most T206 subjects were printed from at least 2-3 different sets of plates.

Steve B

I agree with Steve on the fact that there were more than one set of plates
used on most T206 subjects. I also think they may have been printed in a few different ALC facilities ( they owned several large printing plants during this time frame) which would have used different plates and possibly different sheet layouts and some swapping of subjects at each facility which could account for some of the short prints and other nuances in the set.

I know a lot of people like to poke fun at us "crazy" T206 guys with the stray
marks, print defects ect... but they could be the answer to FAQ's like this.
If someone finds a T213 with a print defect or odd mark like the one found
on several T206 McBrides who is also a T213-1 subject then you would have the answer to this question.

[tedzan]

Here is my concept of an early 350 series print run (circa Spring 1910) of T206's. There is a good likelihood that this same pre-printed (fronts) sheet
was used by American Litho to also produce the 48 - Major League subjects of the 1910 COUPON set.








TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is my concept of an early 350 series print run (circa Spring 1910) of T206's. There is a good likelihood that this same pre-printed (fronts) sheet
was used by American Litho to also produce the 48 - Major League subjects of the 1910 COUPON set.








TED Z
.

It's possible Ted, but somewhere along the line the sheet layouts would of had
to have been changed based on the known two name cards in the 350 series. There are several 350 two name T206's that have a T213-1 subject and a non T213-1 subject.

Chase (blue portrait) - Zimmerman
Engle - Phillippe
Jackson - Hoffman (Danny)
Chance (yellow portrait) - Feine
Lennox - clancy

[steve B]

The plates were not actually plates, but stones. Those were usually resurfaced after use because they were expensive and hard to store. There's some solid evidence that the P150 back stone was either poorly resurfaced or was reworked to make a p350 back stone. (too early to tell which)

The images of cards were probably laid down with transfers printed from a master plate. And that was done from the original art. There are some cards in T206 that show some indication of the masters being redone at the very least between the 150 and 350 series, and probably between 350 and 350-460 as well. The easiest to see is Conroy fielding where there either are or are not lines on his hat.
There are a few cards I've looked at that show three slightly different images for the same subject within the 150 series. I haven't gotten far enough to know if it's all of them or not.

The coupon T1s may have been the same plates, and if not were probably from the same masters.
T2 and T3 all look very different from T206, and were probably made from new masters taken from the same art. I haven't studied it all that deeply though so take that as more opinion based on a very small sample size. (My own collection, 0 Type 1s 3 type 2s and 0 type 3s ....I think I need more coupons )At the minimum one of the blue plates and the brown plate would have been different.

Steve B

Steve B

[tedzan]

There's no dispute regarding front images printed on sheets were switched around in the production process.

My 48-subject configuration pictured above is simply one possible format. I placed Chance adjacent to Cobb
on this sheet since I have actually seen this adjacency on a miscut T206. The other 46 cards in this 12 x 4
format are placed arbitrarily. I came up with this layout years before Jantz posted his "two-name" thread. I
may modify this 48-card arrangement to take into account the two-name data recorded in Jantz's thread.

In any event, what I have illustrated here is simply a sheet of cards that represent the 48 - Major League
guys included in the 1910 COUPON set.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

I've seen quite a few 1910 COUPON cards over the years, but have not seen any "printer's plates scratch marks" on their backs like you guys are looking for.


Here are 11 cards of my 1910 COUPON cards......


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No visible printer's scratch marks discernible on these cards. I'll be interested to see a larger sample of 1910 COUPON cards in order to see if any scratch marks
are visible.

Something for you to consider....so far it appears that all the T206 cards with scratch marks posted pertain to the 150 Series PIEDMONT's. However, these T213
cards were printed along with the 350 Series cards in the T206 press runs (circa Spring 1910).



TED Z
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[Pat R]

[QUOTE=tedzan;1449822]I've seen quite a few 1910 COUPON cards over the years, but have not seen any "printer's plates scratch marks" on their backs like you guys are looking for.




Ted,

I wasn't referring to plate scratches. The op's question concerns the front
of the cards. The McBride I posted has a blue mark on his hip that is found
on several his T206's, if someone found a T213-1 McBride with this mark then it could be proof that the same plates were used for both.

Personally I don't think the same plates were used but that's just my opinion.

[tedzan]

OK....I'm curious as to how you think the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON set were printed ?

If not with the same plates that American Litho printed their T206 counterparts.....then what ?


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's the McBride I have in an SGC holder. There's one other graded by SGC and none on the PSA pop charts from what I saw. I'm sure there are some raw T213-1 Mcbrides out there, but the sample size has to be kind of small...

[ValKehl]

Here's my raw T213-1 McBride, in case this helps:

[Leon]

Ted (hi Ted) made a few good points above. I don't remember seeing scratch marks (plate) on the back of any T213s. That being said, though Burdick said they are similiar to T206, he most likely categorized them differently to fit with their counterparts. That is for another thread though.....