1888 N173 Glass Slide Negatives

[Saco River Auction]

Up For auction January 14 2015@5PM are a collection of 48 Glass Slide Negatives used to create the Goodwin and Company Old Judge N173 Cards.

They came from an estate in Vermont. The photos you will see below are a result of shooting the glass slides on a lighted table and reversing the image.

We have printed 8x10's for each glass slide and 12x18's as a way to display the product in the hall. Each winning bidder will get these prints included with the slide.

As I said there are 48 of these in various poses of various players.

[prewarsports]

Do you have more history of these items?

Can you send a scan of a complete negative with all its borders and not enhanced by light?

What are the sizes of the glass plates?

I am curious because knowing how these images (the negatives) and the baseball cards were produced it would be highly unlikely that a hoard of various teams (from completely different photographers) would have ever been in one place at one time. Goodwin and company would have probably never been in possession of the negatives and only bought images from the individual photographers in developed form and then used these images to make their cards and as such would have their own negatives. The individual photographers would have remained in possession of their negatives. Since you appear to have several teams represented from several different photographers I am curious how these would have been assembled.

Can you post a scan or two of the negatives in raw form (how they appear to the naked eye) with some sizes of the plates?

[Saco River Auction]

Hi, all I know is the consignor is from the Burlington area of Vermont and bought these from an estate over 40 years ago. He does not remember the family name of the estate, but does remember they lived on Lake Champlain.

The Photos are included below and each one measures 5x7

[vthobby]

That's what I'm talking about, 1957-58 Hoops Topps Vending Machine find back in the 1980s, 1948 Bowman Hoops find early 2014, and now these......

I really need to start hitting the road, there are plenty more I'm sure.

Luckily I was part of 2 out of the 3 finds mentioned above!

peace, mike

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

That's what I'm talking about, 1957-58 Hoops Topps Vending Machine find back in the 1980s, 1948 Bowman Hoops find early 2014, and now these......



I really need to start hitting the road, there are plenty more I'm sure.



Luckily I was part of 2 out of the 3 finds mentioned above!



peace, mike

You forgot about the '88 Donruss find of ... '88.

[Saco River Auction]

Watch Video Here

[joshleland]

It might be a stretch to call these definitively used to make the cards
I have seen several of these glass negatives through the years of varying qualities
I remebember the first and largest group was in New England possibly at brimfield in the early 80s
I have this mental image of seeing them in the back of a vehicle
I passed on them but later saw them dispersed in the hobby
None of them ever had pics of the mounts which these do not as well which helps them
I was never convinced they were from the tobacco company although everyone else that owned them always did but the buyers did not respond with price assurity
They always sold for in the low hundreds as novelties rather than in the thousands of dollars which they should have
They could have been used by anyone to print the various media that uitlized these images throughout the years
They also look early 20th century rather than late 19th
I'd like to hear from knowledgable pure photo people like David Cycleback as to their opinions as the date of the negs themselves as my dating is more hunch than definitive but I fear their opinions will also be hunch or gut
Dating glass negs to any certainty is tough for me while vintage prints and non glass negs are a lot easier
In fact I don't recall seeing anything that early in glass but I'm open to being reminded
They are not first generation studio negs based on the various writings like Goodwin & Co. which would have to have the white paint right on the neg to be what we call "camera negs"
I'm not trying to throw water on the auction fire just taking a step back
They could have been used somewhere in the process but like the others I've seen I could never make that definitive jump with certainty
Would I buy or sell them as definitively part of the process, no
Would I buy or sell them as maybes
Maybe
Josh

[prewarsports]

You might want to have these examined to be sure they are not glass plate "copy negatives". The original negatives would most likely not have the Goodwin and Co. copyright on them (unless they are etched into the negatives you have or painted on) and the bottom corners appear to have stickers that are present in the image. It is impossible to tell without holding them in person, but my hunch is that these are not the "originals" but glass plates made after the fact from the developed photographs, probably about 1910-1920.

Awesome items either way, but a bit more research might help you guys when selling these so that they are described accurately.

Best of luck with the sale.

[oldjudge]

Rhys/Josh--I have a glass plate negative that I picked up from Terry Knouse years ago. It has the Goodwin copyright written in black ink on the negative. I believe that the photographers sent the negatives to Goodwin where the copyright and other info may have been written on. I'm pretty sure mine was used in the production process. Having said that, I have not seen the Saco ones in person and I don't know if they are first generation or not. Perhaps Troy could comment as to whether there is writing on the negatives. The writing on mine is obviously on the glass (and not in the negative). I wonder if the Saco ones are the same.

[Saco River Auction]

I have checked the glass negatives and the writing is not in the glass or in the image, but on the glass. It was clearly written and the writing is clearly raised off the surface of the glass.

Troy

[Jeffrompa]

+1. I was going to mention that the only way the writing could be there is if it from the photographer writing on the negative itself .

[joshleland]

Let's be very careful here
I have seen a very few glass plate negatives with the info painted on
But they were not this early, and the work was sloppily done
Look in your kind to things like real photo postcards that have sloppy
cartouches which were done on acetates not glass
When you do a fine point job like on the old judges you did it differently
The normal practice is to print a copy print, have an artist paint it and to make another negative from that
Also, I remember quite well the one or ones Terry Knouse had and the writing was not on the glass
They were very similar to the lot I passed in the 80s
Plus based on the photos of the Saco River negs they do not appear to be first generation or vintage of the period
I suggest you have a 19th century photo expert look at them in person
Almost all baseball people just don't have the expertise
Few do
The question is what type of negatives with white cartouches were typically used to produce the countless number of non baseball cabinet photos out there

By the way I looked at the video and they really are nice and beautifully displayed
I just don't believe they were used to print the cabinets

Josh

[oldjudge]

Josh--I'm not sure what you are talking about. The one I have from Terry has the writing on top of the glass. I pulled it and double checked. The copyright written on the negatives match what is on the cards.

[joshleland]

With all due respect the ones that I saw that terry had did not have thick white paint on top of the glass so I'm skeptical
But I would have to see it in person to know for sure
If indeed you do have an old judge original negative used to make the baseball cards, essentially original art, than you have something incredibly historically important and valuable
I'd love to see it sometime in person
I will be at the Papermania show in Hartford this weekend but that's a haul
btw it's one of the best shows in the country and worth the trip
I'm not calling you out I'm just skeptical that you are evaluating it correctly
Josh

[oldjudge]

Josh--I now live in SoCal so that would be a long trip to the show. If you are out here you are welcome to see the negative, but I am confident that it was prepared by the chefs at Goodwin & Co.

[btcarfagno]

Are any of the N173's that have glass plate negatives in the auction known to exist? Seems like it would be easy to match up the writing on one of the negatives to what is on the card.

Unfortunately they are so damn tough to find at all.

Tom C

[z28jd]

Considering that two of them are Larry Corcoran and he wasn't available in an N173, I'm not sure why they are being called N173 negatives

[joshleland]

Old judge:
I as misled by your Bronx location
That is quite an invitation
I thank you and look forward to the day when I can take you up on it
There is no thing I am not skeptical about
You sir are a gentleman
Sincerely
Josh Evans

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You forgot about the '88 Donruss find of ... '88.

Good one Daryl,

Actually I did find some of those and oh boy let me tell you.........wallpaper baby! Ugh!

peace, mike

PS I was actually trying to forget that find so thanks for bringing that up!

[oldjudge]

Tom--One of the Weidmans matched up exactly with the N173 image in the Old Judge book.

John--As you know, the glass plate negatives were used in the N172 production. There is no copyright written in on the Corcorans which makes sense.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by joshleland

It might be a stretch to call these definitively used to make the cards

In fact I don't recall seeing anything that early in glass but I'm open to being reminded

Josh

Josh,
Not sure if you meant baseball or ANY glass plates but either way:

The wet plate negative was in use from the early 1850s until the late 1880s, before being almost completely replaced by the more convenient dry plate negative process.

Hope that helps a little.

peace, mike

[packs]

Thought this card might be of interest. Not sure why but it has the copyright written onto the proof itself. Could have been done later to deceive or maybe at production.

[drcy]

You can date glass negatives, 1800s versus 1900s, by examining the glass. The glass usually differs in thickness, cut and glass quality. So I think someone could examine the negatives and tell you if they're from the 1800s.

Duly note that they quit making glass negatives and photographic slides in 1920s-30s (replacing with plastic film), so all glass negatives are antique-- the question here is 'how antique.'

I've never been particularly fond of the Vermont find cabinet cards and displays, but they sell for good money even when clearly advertised as being from the early 1900s. I've never seen one of the Vermont find glass negatives, so have no opinion on them other than others have auctioned them as original.

In case anyone's interested, I wrote a brief article giving an overview of the various Old Judge proofs and displays-- here

[oldjudge]

I won several of the negatives in the Saco River Auction and I just wanted to take a moment to complement Troy and his guys for their great work. The care they put into shipping these fragile relics was amazing. They built boxes with special compartments for each negative, and then wrapped and double boxed everything.
In response to the prior questions about these being period, they are--I say this with 100% certainty. My friend Joe Gonsowski, who was at the auction, will discuss this in more depth, but let me just say that these negatives are about as historically significant an Old Judge item as you can get.
Thanks again Troy--a job well done!

[autograf]

They could have no better home than the gentleman in SoCal.......

[btcarfagno]

I wanted to get one to keep but my "strategy" screwed me over. Wanted to see what they were going for, then looked for a bargain, then started getting desperate, then they were all gone.

Craping hell.

Tom C

[peterb69]

Stupid, stupid, stupid me. Been very busy at work and totally forgot the auction was on the 14th. I wanted to get one of these.

Is there anymore to be released next auction?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I won several of the negatives in the Saco River Auction and I just wanted to take a moment to complement Troy and his guys for their great work. The care they put into shipping these fragile relics was amazing. They built boxes with special compartments for each negative, and then wrapped and double boxed everything.
In response to the prior questions about these being period, they are--I say this with 100% certainty. My friend Joe Gonsowski, who was at the auction, will discuss this in more depth, but let me just say that these negatives are about as historically significant an Old Judge item as you can get.
Thanks again Troy--a job well done!

Congrats Jay, and to Joe as well. It's certainly fantastic for our hobby to have guys like you two representing the 'Old Judge' set so well. And John also, of course. John - did you pick up anything?

[Exhibitman]

Outstanding civilized discussion and glad to hear they are original.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Congrats Jay, and to Joe as well. It's certainly fantastic for our hobby to have guys like you two representing the 'Old Judge' set so well. And John also, of course. John - did you pick up anything?

I did not get any, but somehow my good friend Kevin got one of the Larry Corcoran negatives and he has been telling me about it almost everyday

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I did not get any, but somehow my good friend Kevin got one of the Larry Corcoran negatives and he has been telling me about it almost everyday

It's not at all to make you jealous, John!

[vthobby]

What did these go for on average? Just curious.....

Thanks, Mike

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

What did these go for on average? Just curious.....

There were 44 lots in total and one lot had four plates in it that all had some damage, so I won't count that one. The average price was $675, but that's because there were a couple that went for bigger money (Doran $4900, Flynn $1800, Wiedman $1700, Boyd $1700, Boyd $1300). Twenty-six of the lots went for $500 or less and all 38 other than the ones that went for big money went for under $1000.

[Runscott]

With that many of them, you guys will have plenty of opportunities to pick one up on ebay.

[kkkkandp]

I'm not sure there will be "...plenty of opportunities..." Over half of the negatives went to collectors who will likely be holding what they've got. And the flip price certainly won't be as attractive.

[oldjudge]

Scott--The only one I know who has any for sale (and this is old info) is TIK Sr. The last time I checked he was asking about $8000 each.
In one respect I am sorry they came to auction. This group belonged in the Hall of Fame or the Smithsonian.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

There were 44 lots in total and one lot had four plates in it that all had some damage, so I won't count that one. The average price was $675, but that's because there were a couple that went for bigger money (Doran $4900, Flynn $1800, Wiedman $1700, Boyd $1700, Boyd $1300). Twenty-six of the lots went for $500 or less and all 38 other than the ones that went for big money went for under $1000.

Kevin, Thanks for the info.

Peace, Mike

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Scott--The only one I know who has any for sale (and this is old info) is TIK Sr. The last time I checked he was asking about $8000 each.
In one respect I am sorry they came to auction. This group belonged in the Hall of Fame or the Smithsonian.

Jay - I was looking ahead at where some of these may end up.

I think this sort of item is as safe with collectors like yourself, as anywhere - you can always will some of your items to the HOF or Smithsonian, whereas many of our collectibles will be dumped for cash by our non-collecting heirs. I have a few items that will be heading to local town museums and libraries.

[prewarsports]

Museums almost never treat items with the care of individual collectors that paid their own hard earned money for the items (my opinion). They are better with you Jay!

Glad to hear they are real and I wish I could have viewed them in person for educational purposes before they sold!

Rhys

[Joe_G.]

Anxious to post my findings, just need to pull a few more details together and obtain permission to post everything I'd like to post.

I can share that of the 46 Saco River negatives, 38 of them reside with four collectors who are not likely to flip easily. I cannot speak for the other 8 negatives which I believe were split between another 3-4 collectors.

Congrats to those who were able to win a copy (Jay, Kevin, & others) and stay tuned for a summary of my findings (likely over the next week, some pretty neat stuff).