Vintage Set Group Break Idea! Input Needed!

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

Thank for your input and Im sorry you feel that way.

-Nick

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

"legality"? Really?

People, with full knowledge of how it works, decides to join this... and you turn to lawyers? Are you being forced to join at knife point?

Why don't you go after all fantasy leagues and personal bets first (you know... where most people who pay in get ZERO out of it.) and then, when that's all cleaned up, you can go after this small and fun venture... or better yet... get a grip. ...jeez.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

Jay,
I think the total take I have heard is about 10% net. I think it would be good for the board because it would increase activity. I will give 100% of my proceeds to a local dog rescue of some kind and report on it. I don't think it's illegal if we aren't doing anything wrong and every thing is done with transparency. If anyone doesn't want to play they don't have to. Nothing is set in stone yet including doing it. I wanted to have a discussion and go from there.....btw, I have no clue about any breaks because I never have been involved in them but I think our cost should be made public...no issue.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jay,
I think the total take I have heard is about 10% net. I think it would be good for the board because it would increase activity. I will give 100% of my proceeds to a local dog rescue of some kind and report on it. I don't think it's illegal if we aren't doing anything wrong and every thing is done with transparency. If anyone doesn't want to play they don't have to. Nothing is set in stone yet including doing it. I wanted to have a discussion and go from there.....btw, I have no clue about any breaks because I never have been involved in them but I think our cost should be made public...no issue.

+100. If you don't want to participate, you certainly don't have to. As for me....I want to play!!!

[stlcardsfan]

Great idea, I'm in!

[SMPEP]

I don't get it. Why would it be illegal? You can sell your cards on Ebay for any price you determine. You could set up this exact system and sell it there (in fact someone did something like this about 5 years ago).

Heck, when I read this thread my first thought was ... IF I decide to sell any of the sets I own (not planning to right now), this would be a fun/efficient way to do it (versus listing cards individually or waiting for someone with deep enough pockets who needed my set showing up).

And even if they did make a profit ... good for them! Have you never sold a card at a profit before? What would be illegal about selling a card for a profit?

As far as I'm concerned, Leon and Nick desreve a profit if they do it ... because they put in the money and work. And Leon, as far as I'm concerned you would not need to donate your profit to charity (unless you wanted to of course).

Cheers,
Patrick

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I don't get it. Why would it be illegal? You can sell your cards on Ebay for any price you determine. You could set up this exact system and sell it there (in fact someone did something like this about 5 years ago).

Cheers,
Patrick

They do this on ebay literally every day with high priced modern box/case breaks. On most of them, you bid on a particular team and if there are any "hits" in the box/case for that team, you get the card(s).

[Mountaineer1999]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

[refz]

If all goes well for the trial run, id be game for a pre-war set or partial. 1955 topps set is nice safe start but does not fancy me one bit.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

awesome.

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

Thanks for the support lol!

-Nick

[ktimm]

I think it would be great. Learning about and possibly starting to collect a new set, at least for myself. Definitely interested.

[kamikidEFFL]

Not a bad idea but myself would not be interested. It's a nice set for sure but I feel ya get better outcome for something more pre-war. That's what most if these guys collect it seems. Best of luck

[Danny Smith]

Awesome idea. I'm in.

[Sean1125]

For transparency I believe instead of the word 'premium' you should disclose fully what the set cost and what you stand to make.

[AMBST95]

I am definitely interested. I've done team box breaks in the past and they are a lot of fun, particularly if everyone is communicating via chat because you can cheer on and root against each other when the hits come. A chance for a Koufax, Clemente, or Killebrew rookie for a nominal cost would be well worth it.

The proposed method of running the generator with our buy in spots and then depending on where you finish on the list matches the card number is definitely less dramatic. If the cards could be revealed one at a time, it would build anticipation. With a box break, there's already some variability within the box so you don't know when the hit is coming. It'd be nice if we randomized the cards along with the buy in spots so you don't know when the hit is coming. I know it's more work, but makes for a fun online session, which is the point of the project, per Leon.

Also, not sure about your generator that you're using but there are 4 cards missing from the 55 set, so the random generator would need to know to exclude those numbers if trying to coincide each number in the generator with a card number as originally proposed.

[frankbmd]

If anyone is having wet dreams hoping to win the Harry Agganis RC, contact me directly if you are disappointed with the card you win before seeking professional help.

[gregr2]

I'll participate, could be fun!

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

For transparency I believe instead of the word 'premium' you should disclose fully what the set cost and what you stand to make.

That will be disclosed. Not to worry.

Thanks for the comment,
-Nick

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by AMBST95

I am definitely interested. I've done team box breaks in the past and they are a lot of fun, particularly if everyone is communicating via chat because you can cheer on and root against each other when the hits come. A chance for a Koufax, Clemente, or Killebrew rookie for a nominal cost would be well worth it.

The proposed method of running the generator with our buy in spots and then depending on where you finish on the list matches the card number is definitely less dramatic. If the cards could be revealed one at a time, it would build anticipation. With a box break, there's already some variability within the box so you don't know when the hit is coming. It'd be nice if we randomized the cards along with the buy in spots so you don't know when the hit is coming. I know it's more work, but makes for a fun online session, which is the point of the project, per Leon.

Also, not sure about your generator that you're using but there are 4 cards missing from the 55 set, so the random generator would need to know to exclude those numbers if trying to coincide each number in the generator with a card number as originally proposed.

Thanks for the input. We will definitely consider revealing the cards one by one to build anticipation.

-Nick

[Paul S]

Don't forget that although the last card in the 55T set is #210 (Snider), four cards were never issued: 175, 186, 203 & 209.

[mmier118]

As far as increasing interest/membership goes I mostly lurk on these boards, sometimes using the buy/sell board and I would most likely participate in a group break and the corresponding discussions. I think something like this would increase the number of members actively participating in the board and possibly even bring over new members. These breaks are very popular for modern collectors and I think there is a more than fair chance that a break like this could help net54 gain new members and expose some modern collectors to the joys of collecting something more vintage.

[slidekellyslide]

Over on the memorabilia side of the board we held a raffle for a Graig Kreindler original painting....I don't know the legality of something like that, nor do I really care...it was fun knowing I had a chance, and when I didn't win it was nice to know that I helped contribute to someone getting their very own Graig "Freaking" Kreindler original

I don't think I would participate in this one as I have no interest in this set, but it will be fun to watch it all unfold.

[Lordstan]

It seems that those that are "skeptical" want answers now that they don't have yet. They can't know the costs of each entry until they figure out the cost of the set, the mailing costs, and whatever percentage they are getting for all the time and labor to run it. I don't see how difficult this is to grasp. To go one step further, Nick and Leon have committed to letting everyone know how much the set costs and how much their "fees" will be. While I don't know Nick, I do believe Leon's reputation is such, that his word should be good enough for everyone here.

I would think it's fairly obvious that details like, which set, in which grade, for how much per chance, makes all the difference in the world on whether any one of us would want to participate. If they get a 1933 Goudey set in PSA 8 and ask for $10 an entry, I'm sure every person on this board, card collector or not, would want an entry. On the other hand, if it's a 1960 Topps set in PSA 3 for $40 an entry, I'm sure very few would be interested.

I took this post as a tool to measure the interest level of the board for this type of activity, not asking for commitments and promises from any one person. In this type of post, I think they are simply looking for a "Yes, I would be interested in participating if I agree to all the final rules/pricing" number of possible participants.

As for me, I may be willing to participate in this type of activity as I did in the Kreindler raffle. I would be more likely to do so for an older set, even if that meant the per entry price is higher. The chance to possibly win a Lou Gehrig card would be pretty exciting for me.

Mark

[deken]

I am in. Sounds like fun.

[Rich Klein]

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...up-break-idea/

[edhans]

Originally Posted by autocentral

The running the random generator is to make skeptics feel better and provide more excitement to the people watching live. I feel one-three randoms are good if you have about 5-10 people in the break, anything past that 5 is usually the best way to avoid anyone complaining or being skeptical.

-Nick

Maybe you should use your random number generator to generate the number of random number sequences you should generate.

I agree with Jay. there is a clear element of chance here. I wouldn't be prepared to swear that such activity is legal in every state.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

It seems that those that are "skeptical" want answers now that they don't have yet. They can't know the costs of each entry until they figure out the cost of the set, the mailing costs, and whatever percentage they are getting for all the time and labor to run it. I don't see how difficult this is to grasp. To go one step further, Nick and Leon have committed to letting everyone know how much the set costs and how much their "fees" will be. While I don't know Nick, I do believe Leon's reputation is such, that his word should be good enough for everyone here.

I would think it's fairly obvious that details like, which set, in which grade, for how much per chance, makes all the difference in the world on whether any one of us would want to participate. If they get a 1933 Goudey set in PSA 8 and ask for $10 an entry, I'm sure every person on this board, card collector or not, would want an entry. On the other hand, if it's a 1960 Topps set in PSA 3 for $40 an entry, I'm sure very few would be interested.

I took this post as a tool to measure the interest level of the board for this type of activity, not asking for commitments and promises from any one person. In this type of post, I think they are simply looking for a "Yes, I would be interested in participating if I agree to all the final rules/pricing" number of possible participants.

As for me, I may be willing to participate in this type of activity as I did in the Kreindler raffle. I would be more likely to do so for an older set, even if that meant the per entry price is higher. The chance to possibly win a Lou Gehrig card would be pretty exciting for me.

Mark

100% correct Mark. I stand by my transparency motto on all of this. I stand by my offer of giving 100% of my proceeds to a dog (or other animal cause) in the North Texas area and will report back on it. I love helping our animal friends and almost nothing makes me happier. Really, the only thing now is to determine what set is best to use. I am not sold on '55 Topps.....as this is a pre-war board (but it could still be the one, I just don't know). I do think Nick needs to get something for all of the work he will put into this so I really want his small take to go to him. This is NOT a money making project. Every single penny will be exposed, cost and sale-wise. There will be some expenses (paypal, shipping etc...) and those will have to be accounted for. I will put up the money for the set and I just want what I put into it back, after all is said and done. I don't want a penny otherwise. Nothing is set in stone. I think this will appeal to a lot of our members and isn't our hobby about having fun?

[bbcard1]

I doubt law enforcement would get their knickers in a knot unless someone really got ticked off and pushed the issue.

As for me, i'd probably play if it were a set I was even casually interested in and the cost seemed reasonable.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I doubt law enforcement would get their knickers in a knot unless someone really got ticked off and pushed the issue.

As for me, i'd probably play if it were a set I was even casually interested in and the cost seemed reasonable.

While this set break does seem like gambling at least you will come away with something for your money...some will pay more than the card's actual value and some will pay less. I would say this is probably more within the law than a raffle. Hasn't modern card collecting been about gambling for the last decade or so anyway? I rarely visit my local card shop any longer, but when I'm there it's usually adults buying expensive unopened packs hoping for the autograph insert.

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...up-break-idea/

Awesome article Rich!

-Nick

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Don't forget that although the last card in the 55T set is #210 (Snider), four cards were never issued: 175, 186, 203 & 209.

Thanks for the post. We will definitely have all this sorted out.

-Nick

[drazz5]

What is the estimated timeline for all this getting put together?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by drazz5

What is the estimated timeline for all this getting put together?

Nick and I need to chat about it.....I don't think it will be in the next week but would think sometime in the next month or so. There are some other details to be worked out...especially exactly what set to use. More details soon...LL

[Rich Klein]

As I said, for a donation to our men's club, I'd be happy to have this event as part of our show on the 31st with Leon running the randomater.

We have plenty of room and I think that would bring some extra excitement to the proceedings.

Plus that would give enough time for the spaces to be filled and if any are available they could be filled at the show on that day.

Rich

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

As I said, for a donation to our men's club, I'd be happy to have this event as part of our show on the 31st with Leon running the randomater.

We have plenty of room and I think that would bring some extra excitement to the proceedings.

Plus that would give enough time for the spaces to be filled and if any are available they could be filled at the show on that day.

Rich

Thanks for the offer Rich. I will definitely consider it. I know you are easy to work with!! I think I am going to start one more thread to get specific feedback on what set to use. Nothing is ruled out or in so far.

[edhans]

This business model is still unclear to me. Is the slot price going to be based on cost, cost plus markup, or "retail" value of the individual cards? If the former, why would anyone lay out $4-8K for a set with virtually no return? If the latter, wouldn't customers be vastly better off in the long run simply assembling their own set by buying in groups and at widely available discounts off single cards?

Also, I don't see the need for any "disclosure". Assuming it's legal, it's just another business venture. Leon and Nick should just set a slot price based on whatever criteria they deem appropriate. If they're able to find enough weak-minded customers who are amused by this chicanery, they should make some money on it. And there's no reason the profits need to be donated to an animal shelter, no matter how much Leon loves dogs. It's no different, really, than bingo, slot machines or roulette. If these activities stimulate you, have fun with it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by edhans

This business model is still unclear to me. Is the slot price going to be based on cost, cost plus markup, or "retail" value of the individual cards? If the former, why would anyone lay out $4-8K for a set with virtually no return? If the latter, wouldn't customers be vastly better off in the long run simply assembling their own set by buying in groups and at widely available discounts off single cards?

Also, I don't see the need for any "disclosure". Assuming it's legal, it's just another business venture. Leon and Nick should just set a slot price based on whatever criteria they deem appropriate. If they're able to find enough weak-minded customers who are amused by this chicanery, they should make some money on it. And there's no reason the profits need to be donated to an animal shelter, no matter how much Leon loves dogs. It's no different, really, than bingo, slot machines or roulette. If these activities stimulate you, have fun with it.

In my mind, and if I am sponsoring it, the cost per ticket will be figured starting with the true cost of the set to be "raffled". As an example if it were a $1000 set and there were 50 cards, the cost of the cards would be $20 each. Then there would be a 10% markup making it $22 per card. Then we would only add true, hard expenses on top of that. I would guess another dollar a card. So each card would cost $23. Therefore $1 would go to Nick for running the whole thing and doing all of the work, $1 would go to me for putting out the money and running the board (and I will still donate all of my proceeds as I said) and $1 for expenses......paypal etc.....then also, we would need to add exact shipping to each shipment. But that is it. Not rocket science. And anything short of something like this scenario and I wouldn't be in favor of doing it. As for chicanery, I don't know about that, but it is a form of lottery I guess. And "weak minded" is a bit strong too but I sort of agree about gambling in general. I have done it a dozen times or so and always have a 100-200 limit per day. I get enjoyment from it when I do it and don't stress. It can be fun. Honestly, these group breaks are not something I would generally join in, as buying into and playing. They just aren't my cup 'o tea, but I know some folks really like them.

I should add, this isn't another business venture to me. It is a way to get more people involved on the board. If it were a business venture I would want to make money .

[kailes2872]

1955 is one of the 4 sets left that I am looking to complete and was planned as a 2015 project.

Since I generally overpay for cards and have zero negotiation skills and ability - paying $25 for an $8 card is something that I do nearly every day in my set building quests. So, for me, paying $25 for a slot will be like buying a common and anything above a common would be gravy

What I need to ask Eric Perry about is - what is the tipping point? If I spend $1000 (40 entries) on a $4000 set, do I stand a good percentage chance to get Kourfax or Clemente? Somewhere on my bookshelf is my college stats book and I could probably pull it out and figure the break even point. But, since I am going to buy this set in the coming year anyway, I was wondering what a good number would be. If I somehow spent 1000-2000 and landed both Koufax and Clemente, it would send me on my way to very good value for the set. If I missed on both of them, and got 40 really nice $8 commons, then I will be sleeping in the spare bedroom and apologizing to the MRS.

Regards,
Kevin

[Rich Klein]

Kevin with PSA8 I'd bet your $1K would not end up with just 40 commons.

You can figure out the stars in the set and the rookies and I'd pretty much say if you did not end up with one of the following cards (and I'd say a 20 percent of the set equals one of these stars)

Clemente, Hodges, Snider, Koufax, Killebrew, Berra, T. Wiliams, Aaron. Mays

You buy 40 slots and not get at least ONE key player, then you should never go to Vegas again

[kailes2872]

then you should never go to Vegas again

Under serious consideration after my last, painful trip....

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Kevin with PSA8 I'd bet your $1K would not end up with just 40 commons.

You can figure out the stars in the set and the rookies and I'd pretty much say if you did not end up with one of the following cards (and I'd say a 20 percent of the set equals one of these stars)

Clemente, Hodges, Snider, Koufax, Killebrew, Berra, T. Wiliams, Aaron. Mays

You buy 40 slots and not get at least ONE key player, then you should never go to Vegas again

You have an approximately 13.7% chance of not getting one of those 7 guys if you buy 40 slots.

[wolf441]

Seeing the arguments against, I keep coming back to the point, if you don't want to participate, no one is forcing you to. I agree with Leon on the "weak minded" quote (and I like Ed, so no offense taken!!). If I have the cash and want to gamble a little bit, I don't see the harm. If I wind up with a couple of commons, oh well. That would just be another aspect of what makes the hobby enjoyable for me.

[Tabe]

Depending on the set and the slot price, I'd probably be in.

[4815162342]

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to do, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rul...ts.html#page=0

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rul...ts.html#page=0

To me this is like going 56mph in a 55mph zone. I don't think with what we are doing, and the net amounts, that we will have any worries about all of those rules. If this was big money, maybe, but it's not. And much of the profits are going to charity. I will roll the dice on it, if we get there and decide this is a go....but always good to read caveats and stuff.

[t206trader]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to do, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rul...ts.html#page=0

This is not relatable to what is being discussed. Is a crane machine illegal too? This is definitely a game of chance but everyone still wins a prize (unlike a raffle) and also isn't designed to make the people running it money (unlike a raffle). Without a monetary incentive for the person running it the odds of litigation prevailing are slim to none. But as Leon said always good to be fully informed.