Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[Runscott]

Max, it would be the kiss of re-sell death. Not the case for a soaked one. Fair or not to Dick and ilk, that fact is what it is all about for most in our hobby.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[WhenItWasAHobby]

[wonkaticket]

Classic Saul!!!! Love it.

[TexasLeaguer]

Nobody else really seems to mind, but if I knew a card had been soaked in water, it would diminish its value to me.

[Runscott]

Yeah, but we don't have Saul - who we gonna get?

[steve B]

I was curious, so I looked for more about the Plank.

And I believe It's an example that can be used to clarify how I view things.

I'm in favor of light surface cleaning to remove buildups of "stuff" on the surface. Some stains can be removed or reduced the same way, usually only reduced.
I'm also in favor of professional deacidification for items that need it.

The key being professional.

The conservation work I had some links to shows what's proper. Cleaning, preserving, making it stable in a reversible way that won't cause further damage years after the work was done. And documenting the work done.

All that implies limits to what should be done.

I believe the surface cleaning I did on my card was limited and proper. The card is better off long term. (And I must admit being surprised at the grade -I was expecting maybe a 35-40 or an A, and hoping for a 50) I didn't document the process other than before and after scans, but I'm very open about what was done and how.

Now that I know the Plank actually is that whitened and has actually lost the degree of color shown in the scans rather than the scan being brightened here's my take on that card.

It's sloppy poorly done work. Anything that would remove both the stain and that much color would need to be neutralized properly. But someone who can't avoid damaging the color while taking out the stain probably is too sloppy to do that.
Meaning not only is the card overcleaned and improperly whitened, but it's probably in for further damage from whatever was used.
That steps over every boundary for proper conservation, and should NOT be done.

Steve Birmingham

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

but they are all wet.

Does anyone else here soak their diplomas?

Nah, we get them laminated. Then, when the market goes up, we learn to dissolve.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Maybe overlooked, but in the "Spring Cleaning Comes Early To The Plank Household" thread linked above, post # 34 was very interesting:

Originally Posted by Doug

The last time I saw T206s that white was when I soaked a few beaters in warm water mixed with a small scoop of Oxi Clean just to see if it would work. They came out with borders and backs that were snow white with no chemical smell at all. I sold them with the disclosure that they had been cleaned and they later popped up on eBay in slabs.

Could it be that simple, with the Plank-maybe Oxi Clean?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here are some nice white borders.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1915-C...-LOT33800.aspx

[ElCabron]

There is a common sense factor that is severely lacking in many of these posts. As Leon said, in the real world, water is not considered a chemical.

If you accidentally spill water on a card, should it then be considered altered? If you accidentally get a speck of ketchup on a card, do you have to leave it there, or can you wipe it off? If you wipe it off, should the card now be considered altered? Also, stop eating and drinking around your cards.

For me, it's pretty simple. Water is fine. Chemicals are not. I don't think I'm in the minority on that.

I don't have a degree in chemistry, but I can pretty much guarantee I've soaked more cards than anyone who does. So which background is more relevant to this discussion? The theoretical one, or the practical one? I don't need someone else to tell me what they think happens to cards when they're soaked. At least when they're soaked in water. I know what happens. Stains don't magically disappear in water, btw.

How many here are on board with the original poster and think his practices are okay? I'm a strong vote in the "no freaking way" column.

-Ryan

[bobbyw8469]

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

[quinnsryche]

Some people like cards that look like they were run over by a truck (torn/folded/creased and such). Some like nice clean cards that look brand new. To each his own. If you think a card has been "tampered" with and you don't like it, leave it for the next collector. If you don't care, buy it. Do your homework, make an educated decision and live with it. It's just cards. This is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun. When it's not fun, you lose sleep over it, you go on chat boards and endlessly bitch above everything in the hobby, maybe it's time to move on to something else. Take a deep breath and chill boys!
Life's too short to get bent out of shape about whether or not a baseball card has been cleaned on not.
My 2 cents, take it or leave it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

So will you disclose which cards of yours have been worked on by him?

[ullmandds]

i don't think this debate will ever be settled...this thread may even de-throne the monster # thread...what a sad day in mud-ville that'd be!

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i don't think this debate will ever be settled...this thread may even de-throne the monster # thread...what a sad day in mud-ville that'd be!

Not a chance!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Let's say you're renting a house. You spill a bottle of wine on the carpet. You pay a professional carpet cleaning service to clean it because you don't want to loose your $2K deposit. The carpet cleaning service removes the stain and makes the rest of the carpet look like new. No one could ever tell a bottle of wine had been spilt. When it comes time to vacate the house, do you tell your landlord? For what? Does he even care if it's something he can't see? I keep going back to the same old point. If there is no evidence, why does it matter?

If having a stain removed from a card lowered the value of a card, I could certainly understand disclosing it. That would be common sense. However I don't think that it does - especially if it's graded after the stain is removed. Last time I looked in the SMR, there wasn't a pricing category for graded cards that have had a stained removed.

To answer a question John (Wonka) asked me earlier in this thread, yes, I do believe creases that are removed from a card should be disclosed. There's a huge difference and let me explain. It's been proven that creases can sometimes come back. The new owner of the card should know that a crease has been removed so he is aware of the possibility of the crease returning. However, there is no evidence that the stain removal process leaves any long term effects. None! Again, huge difference. And if at some point it can be proven that removing a stain can show long term effects, I would certainly change my stance. But, for now, that's how I feel.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Let's say you're renting a house. You spill a bottle of wine on the carpet. You pay a professional carpet cleaning service to clean it because you don't want to loose your $2K deposit. The carpet cleaning service removes the stain and makes the rest of the carpet look like new. No one could ever tell a bottle of wine had been spilt. When it comes time to vacate the house, do you tell your landlord? For what? Does he even care if it's something he can't see? I keep going back to the same old point. If there is no evidence, why does it matter?



If having a stain removed from a card lowered the value of a card, I could certainly understand disclosing it. That would be common sense. However I don't think that it does - especially if it's graded after the stain is removed. Last time I looked in the SMR, there wasn't a pricing category for graded cards that have had a stained removed.



To answer a question John (Wonka) asked me earlier in this thread, yes, I do believe creases that are removed from a card should be disclosed. There's a huge difference and let me explain. It's been proven that creases can sometimes come back. The new owner of the card should know that a crease has been removed so he is aware of the possibility of the crease returning. However, there is no evidence that the stain removal process leaves any long term effects. None! Again, huge difference. And if at some point it can be proven that removing a stain can show long term effects, I would certainly change my stance. But, for now, that's how I feel.

If I was trading or selling my carpet as a collectible I would disclose.

[RGold]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Not a chance!!!

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

[Runscott]

Ryan, as you can see from posts subsequent to yours, common sense is never going to prevail in this hobby.

[vintagetoppsguy]

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

+1 . . . . too many people living in glass houses trying to throw stones!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RGold

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

He would still finish last.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

[freakhappy]

This thread is getting comical. I mean, I get people's take from both sides, but why do people against soaking cards think it's so unethical? If the water or chemicals do not affect the card, why care? I don't agree with trimming, recoloring, rolling out wrinkles, etc,. but if what is being done is simply cleaning up the card with no side effects, what's the big deal?

And what's up with the common sense comments? Who made the rules about ethics around here anyway? I'm totally against a chemical/water that will alter a card in the long run, but until then we have no proof.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

My statement you quoted wasn't referring to just disclosure. It's a combination of many things - soaking, cutting pictures out of old magazines, whatever. Some people try and make you feel stupid if you don't see things from their point of view.

As far as disclosure, there have been many, many threads over the years on soaking cards. Many, many board members have admitted to soaking. I am one of them. I've soaked several cards, some with good results and some with bad. And if many people on this board admit to soaking, just think of how many non-members are out there who soak as well. Here's the kicker, Alex. Go search eBay for "T206 soaked" or "T206 stain removed." Guess how many results you get? Zero. Now search again, but replace the word "T206" with the word "Topps." How many results now? Still zero. So, of the thousands and thousands of cards that have ever been soaked, is it that none of them just never get listed on eBay, or is it that people don't disclose it? I think you know the answer.

My opinion is why disclose that if no harm is ever going to come from it and it's never going to make any difference whatsoever? Again, that's just my opinion, everybody else is entitled to theirs as well. Every one of us has to do what we think is right.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

I like you too, Scott

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

No, previous posts show that the attitude toward disclosure of soaking vs disclosure of chemical cleaning is overwhelmingly NOT the same.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I like you too, Scott

You won't after I give my 'Noah' review

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You won't after I give my 'Noah' review

Saw it for about 10 minutes tonight and had to leave because of a family emergency (my wife's family). I'm going to spoil it for you, Scott. They're all white and speak in English

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by RGold

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

I'm almost finished, Ron. When is the deadline?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Saw it for about 10 minutes tonight and had to leave because of a family emergency (my wife's family). I'm going to spoil it for you, Scott. They're all white and speak in English

Sorry to hear about your family emergency, David. But regarding the movie, I just got back from it two hours ago, so spoil away.

If you want my spoiler, here it is: it isn't a literal interpretation of the Bible, and they used real actors. You'll hate it.

[RGold]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm almost finished, Ron. When is the deadline?

Duke looks pretty solid.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by RGold

Duke looks pretty solid.

Sound advice, Ron.

I'm going to go with a Duke-Kansas final.

I like underdogs.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Sound advice, Ron.

I'm going to go with a Duke-Kansas final.

I like underdogs.

I went with Duke/Michigan State. In my other bracket I went with N.Carolina and Duke.

I can't wait for football season.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Runscott

... it isn't a literal interpretation of the Bible, and they used real actors. You'll hate it.

If it gets people talking, I'll consider that a win.

[nolemmings]

If it gets people talking, I'll consider that a win.

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy
One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

Originally Posted by Scott F
That's all true, but we like you anyway.

Bravissimo!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

+1





Bravissimo!

Never-mind, I figured it out

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

If it gets people talking, I'll consider that a win.

If that's all it takes, then most everything in life is a win. But this one is good, AND should get people talking. I'll start a thread over in the watercooler area, and hope we can avoid fighting, but I kinda doubt it.

[ctownboy]

freakhappy,

The big deal about soaking and cleaning a card is the same thing as rolling the odometer back on a vehicle. What the card and the vehicle has gone through during its "life" is NOT being accurately represented by what is seen AFTER the cleaning (or rolling back ofthe odometer).

Look, if a 30 year- old car has 75,000 miles on it and has only been owned and driven by a little old lady, there is an expectation of how well that car has been taken care of and what condition that car is in. Because of that, that car is most likely going to sell for more than the same car that has 200,000 miles on it and whose last owner was an 18 year - old boy.

The SAME thing with a baseball card.

Until the last 20 or so years, baseball cards were meant to be collected, traded, flipped and put in bicycle spokes. They were NOT originally intended to be kept in pristine condition. Before that, they were distributed in packaging that contributed to their condition not being pristine. So, when a card IS found in great condition, the price it sells for is going to be higher than if it were in lower condition.

Rolling the odometer back on a vehicle is illegal because 1) the price you pay for the vehicle is going to be higher than it otherwise would be and 2) the perception of what you are getting and the reality of what you are getting are two different things.

With vehicles, there are maintenance and safety issues that come up with an odometer being rolled back. With cards, you do NOT know what is going to happen in time with a card that has been cleaned. You (or your heirs) might literally be banking on that card staying in the same condition and appreciating in value. But jut think what happens when you overpay for a cleaned card and either 1) the technology comes into play and it can be proven the card has been cleaned, 2) the card deteriorates or 3) both things happen.

How happy are you going to be then?

Finally, for those who think cleaning a card is okee dokey, I am sure if you have a card cleaned and the improved look causes the card to improve in grading, you ARE going to both disclose the card has been cleaned AND sell the card for the value of the lower grade, right?

David Smith

[freakhappy]

I appreciate you enthusiasm, David...but your car analogy doesn't necessarily fit into this scenario. If we were solely debating altering cards in such a way like recoloring, trimming, rebuilding, then your analogy would be perfect.

There is a lot that still needs to be proved in the card soaking business before I totally think it's ok to do so, but as of right now, I have no proof that says it has bad long term effects, so I'm not against it per se.

IMO if your '57 Chevy was sitting in the garage for several years and accumulated dirt and grime...why not get it cleaned and looking better? These cards imo are just getting cleaned after so many years of collecting dirt and grime. I know it improves it's value most of the time because it is supposed to...you're cleaning the grime off of it! Will your '57 Chevy look better after the bath? Well, we both know the answer to that one...and the same applies to the cards.

Like I stated before, I'm not totally on board because who knows of the long term effects, but I'm not sure how one could be so one sided when debating this topic.

I wonder how many people would be totally shocked at how many of these cards have actually been soaked in water or cleaned with chemicals? I'm willing to bet over half of the t206's in existence have been soaked one way or another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chernieto]

Finally, for those who think cleaning a card is okee dokey, I am sure if you have a card cleaned and the improved look causes the card to improve in grading, you ARE going to both disclose the card has been cleaned AND sell the card for the value of the lower grade, right?

David Smith[/QUOTE]

Your car analogy is interesting. Everyone who is against using water or cleaning cards in any manner MUST realize they do not know the whole history of their century old cards? They could have been washed or cleaned in the cards long life. Tons of old T206'sgraded 5-6-7 have evidence of scrapbooks etc. If you find out your favorite NM graded card was "altered" by cleaning with water or whatever will you have it re slabbed to reflect what you perceive as altered? I have never cleaned a card but I have an old T202 with M.Brown that has scrapbook paper stuck to it & after owning the card for 40 years I AM going to wash it!!! And to tell the truth I am kind of excited about it. I won't sell it & if I do a perfect job it could only grade a 1 or 1.5.

[frankbmd]

Up for auction today are four pristine examples from motoring history preserved with provenance from their original owners. The cars have never been altered in any way and I guarantee that or a full refund with be provided. Some might suggest that these beauties have been neglected, but I can assure you they have only been well loved since leaving the showroom floor. The Jeep in the lower right corner shows evidence of possibly being soaked. We believe in full disclosure in all our advertising. The cars you see are the cars you will get. This lot will not last long at $40,000 with free shipping. The first PM or email saying "I'll take 'em" wins. No fee PP preferred.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Up for auction today are four pristine examples from motoring history preserved with provenance from their original owners. The cars have never been altered in any way and I guarantee that or a full refund with be provided. Some might suggest that these beauties have been neglected, but I can assure you they have only been well loved since leaving the showroom floor. The Jeep in the lower right corner shows evidence of possibly being soaked. We believe in full disclosure in all our advertising. The cars you see are the cars you will get. This lot will not last long at $40,000 with free shipping. The first PM or email saying "I'll take 'em" wins. No fee PP preferred.

Funny! Your point is spot on as well!

[Runscott]

We seem to have an emerging group of 'all or nothing' collectors;i.e-either you can't touch a card (no, if you spill oatmeal on it at breakfast, it has to be allowed to harden and can never be removed), or you can restore them completely - just like a painting - and in fact, you SHOULD, just like a painting.

The 'everything is black and white' approach seems kinda dumb to me - just sayin.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Runscott

We seem to have an emerging group of 'all or nothing' collectors;i.e-either you can't touch a card (no, if you spill oatmeal on it at breakfast, it has to be allowed to harden and can never be removed), or you can restore them completely - just like a painting - and in fact, you SHOULD, just like a painting.

The 'everything is black and white' approach seems kinda dumb to me - just sayin.

I would imagine that's because everything is a chemical or nothing is. Interesting, but now tiresome, debate.

[4815162342]

This thread has provided a valuable service. Knowing who is for altering cards, and who is against altering cards should help board members in any future BST transactions.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Up for auction today are four pristine examples from motoring history preserved with provenance from their original owners. The cars have never been altered in any way and I guarantee that or a full refund with be provided. Some might suggest that these beauties have been neglected, but I can assure you they have only been well loved since leaving the showroom floor. The Jeep in the lower right corner shows evidence of possibly being soaked. We believe in full disclosure in all our advertising. The cars you see are the cars you will get. This lot will not last long at $40,000 with free shipping. The first PM or email saying "I'll take 'em" wins. No fee PP preferred.

Does Frank's Fine Auctions accept consignments? I have an old lever action Winchester that I would like to sell. It's pre-'64, so it's highly collectible. The gun is in pristine condition having never been cleaned. That's right, no solvent has ever touched the bore. Lots of rust and corrosion included to lend credibility.

[Leon]

I will sum up this thread from my view:

1.Most board members don't mind soaking a card or cleaning it with water.
2.Most board members mind it being cleaned with anything else.
3.Almost all board members don't approve of creases or wrinkles being removed.

As for me.....still on the fence but would generally fall into the categories above.

[Edward]

If and when pop reports become exceedingly top heavy, and those who otherwise wouldn't succumb (kind of like steroids), how long before the whole house of cards collapses?