Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[jhs5120]

I'm left with a very difficult decision:

I can either be a productive member of society and continue on with my work, or I can spend the rest of the day reading this forum waiting for a response....

[ullmandds]

I'd keep working if I were u!

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'd keep working if I were u!

I agree.. It may be a long wait.

[Texxxx]

I dont have to work since I broke my hand in three places last week so this sound like a good place to sit back and read.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

Better late than never. What was it Dennis Purdy called PSA in his classic early 1990s screed in VCBC, a smoke detector without batteries?

[ElCabron]

I agree with Joe. Some people are unbelievable scumbags and outrageous criminals. Right, Joe? Back me up here, Joe. Hello? Joe???

-Ryan

[ullmandds]

How about...."people do the darnedest things?"

[ZachS]

Just catching up on this. Looks like we got some pretty good detectives here. Now I'm anxiously awaiting the response.

Who has the popcorn?

[T206Collector]

I think we should have a poll as to what the defense will be:

1. I should be rewarded for exposing the cracks in TPG.

2. Nothing I did was fraudulent, deceptive, or otherwise illegal.

3. I dropped the cards in a jar of Lena Blackburne's Rubbing Mud and upon brushing them off realized through none of my own intent that the cards were sharper and shinier.

4. You want answers? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think we should have a poll as to what the defense will be:

1. I should be rewarded for exposing the cracks in TPG.

2. Nothing I did was fraudulent, deceptive, or otherwise illegal.

3. I dropped the cards in a jar of Lena Blackburne's Rubbing Mud and upon brushing them off realized through none of my own intent that the cards were sharper and shinier.

4. You want answers? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

It takes a lot to make me laugh but this did it

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Better late than never. What was it Dennis Purdy called PSA in his classic early 1990s screed in VCBC, a smoke detector without batteries?

Yup. I have been plugging through the back run I bought a couple months ago and serendipitously began issue #23 last night. It has an article by Keith Olbermann about a grading gone terribly wrong titled "Slab This!!" and is as relevant today as it was in 2000 when it was published. I leave with you with the last paragraph.

"There is only one solution, and that is to presume that every card sealed in a plastic container has been altered, and, however innocently, pronounced authentic and original, nonetheless. In short, don't buy a slabbed card. Ever. Ever."

[byrone]

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy

Yes, we wouldn't want the Whitehouse to accidentally burn down again now would we?

For those of you keeping score at home, that's Canada 1 USA 0.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by conor912

Yup. I have been plugging through the back run I bought a couple months ago and serendipitously began issue #23 last night. It has an article by Keith Olbermann about a grading gone terribly wrong titled "Slab This!!" and is as relevant today as it was in 2000 when it was published. I leave with you with the last paragraph.

"There is only one solution, and that is to presume that every card sealed in a plastic container has been altered, and, however innocently, pronounced authentic and original, nonetheless. In short, don't buy a slabbed card. Ever. Ever."

But Olbermann has bought slabbed cards ....

[conor912]

Originally Posted by glchen

But Olbermann has bought slabbed cards ....

I believe he bought the Wagner before this particular debacle. I can not speak to what he has bought and sold since.

[T206Collector]

I'm just piecing some things together -- wasn't all of this vetted a year ago on the CU Board? What, if any, was the resolution there?

The most I could find was here:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I'm just piecing some things together -- wasn't all of this vetted a year ago on the CU Board? What, if any, was the resolution there?

The most I could find was here:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

That thread was deleted by the CU mods. There was more to the thread than your link provides. Probstein first replied and inferred that Joe P was one of many dealers that visits Probstein's operation in person to view the cards either before or while they're on auction and that's how he gets his bumps - he's basically cherry picking them. Probstein later replied in the thread that he was banning his eBay username (pank21) and would no longer accept consignments from him...which we know is not true.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I'm left with a very difficult decision:

I can either be a productive member of society and continue on with my work, or I can spend the rest of the day reading this forum waiting for a response....

Productivity has slowed to an unbearable speed at my keyboard.

This has been a long long thread so far. Its so long it is almost hard to understand what the timeline of events are surrounding the cards in question.

This thread needs a full regroup of the facts to meet what is about to be said by the guy.

Can someone please, for the record, state the facts and only the facts, from both sides of the timeline and where the gaps are in the custody of the card, that he plans to clarify....for each card being questioned(there have been many cards discussed)


Kevin

[whitehse]

Going back and re-reading posts at CU is like looking at Swiss cheese. They have gutted so many posts over there that it is virtually impossible to get the full meaning of any thread on that board. Deleted posts within threads, altogether deleted threads and members being banned for petty reasons have really caused that board to be a shadow of it's former self along with any good amount of information that it might have ever produced.

That is why I enjoy this board. Nothing is ever deleted and it is all there for anyone to see at any time.

[botn]

Originally Posted by whitehse

That is why I enjoy this board. Nothing is ever deleted and it is all there for anyone to see at any time.

Well that was until Joe P was able to negotiate to have his name removed from this thread.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by botn

Well that was until Joe P was able to negotiate to have his name removed from this thread.

Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz
Joe Pankiewicz

That oughta do it!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That thread was deleted by the CU mods. There was more to the thread than your link provides. Probstein first replied and inferred that Joe P was one of many dealers that visits Probstein's operation in person to view the cards either before or while they're on auction and that's how he gets his bumps - he's basically cherry picking them. Probstein later replied in the thread that he was banning his eBay username (pank21) and would no longer accept consignments from him...which we know is not true.

Here are the pages to that thread in numerical order:

PLEASE NOTE: If you find this thread of interest for posterity, I would recommend doing a "Save As" on your browser for each page to save it on your hard drive, since these hidden threads will also disappear once certain parties find out they are being viewed again.

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

[botn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That oughta do it!

Oh man! Now we will never be able to read his overly worked statement that his lawyer prepared.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Having accomplished his objective, it would seem his incentive to respond has declined dramatically. Of course David could still edit his post to bring back the original title if he doesn't, I suppose.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Having accomplished his objective, it would seem his incentive to respond has declined dramatically. Of course David could still edit his post to bring back the original title if he doesn't, I suppose.

Or as Leon suggested, "...if he doesn't respond then I will most likely start one or more threads with titles he will like even less."

[frankbmd]

I would rename the thread "Hankie Pankie". It seems appropriate on many levels.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Hendrix to Tommy James and the Shondells.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I would rename the thread "Hankie Pankie". It seems appropriate on many levels.

I saw a card, graded 7 one time,
And now it's graded a number 9.
A pretty little card, not the best, but hey,
I'll resubmit, for a better grade!
It's never lower, never ever lower...

[thehoodedcoder]

THis thread is on pace to be out viewed by the monster number thread which was started in 2011, 2 years ago, in no time flat.

20,000 views already.

Talk about bad publicity. If I was remotely interested in getting the negative press to go away wouldn't I make my statement as soon as possible?

Kevin

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

THis thread is on pace to be out viewed by the monster number thread which was started in 2011, 2 years ago, in no time flat.

20,000 views already

Kevin

Wait just a minute! Them's fightin' words. We remain the proud tortoise and have left many worthy hares in the ditch.

Thanks for the plug though.

[Bocabirdman]

*

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Actually, this thread shoud be retitled "Weather" as everyone bitches about it but nobody does anything about it. It's kinda like bitchin' about JC Martin runnin' out of the base line in the 1969 World Series.

You're absolutely right Mike!
nobody does anything about it, BUT that's because nothing can be done about
it, this Joe can't be acting alone and if the grading companies are working with
him, well they just have to much money and power behind them and the average joe can only talk about it in a forum like this and provide some interesting entertainment for awhile til next time.

[Bocabirdman]

*

[ElCabron]

The guy did respond, so for the sake of fairness, I would think new posts on the original subject of this thread should be posted in that thread. Just my opinion.

-Ryan

[Stonepony]

My thought
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hWJX9yU...%3DhWJX9yUKJeQ

[flaggots]

First thread i read on this forum, i learned more from this then 10 years on CU. thanks.

[Texxxx]

Originally Posted by flaggots

First thread i read on this forum, i learned more from this then 10 years on CU. thanks.

You have not seen a fraction of the things you can learn here.
Welcome aboard!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Let me grab my bag of popcorn...

Z Wheat

Originally Posted by ZachS

Just catching up on this. Looks like we got some pretty good detectives here. Now I'm anxiously awaiting the response.

Who has the popcorn?

I brought plenty, and am happy to share.



I am having some kettle corn tonight. Yummy.

Originally Posted by Texxxx

I dont have to work since I broke my hand in three places last week so this sound like a good place to sit back and read.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Bruce. I broke my left leg in three places end of June. Maybe we can convince Leon to put a couple comfy chairs up front for us. I have a feeling this thread is going to go on for a long while. Either that, or it will collapse into itself like a black hole.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Kangaroo Court is Peter's area of expertise.

Well played, Frank.

[the 'stache]

The problem as I see it, gentlemen, is widespread indifference within the hobby. It's not just one or two sellers with questionable ethics, or a particular tpg accepting cards from these sellers, that should draw our ire here (though I am certainly not above cracking a bad egg or two publicly). There is an all-encompassing malaise that nurtures this kind of unethical behavior, and the biggest companies within the industry seem perfectly content to keep things the way they are. Topps, with it's exclusive rights to MLB licensing through 2020, is making money, even as the overall quality of their product has fallen off a cliff. Ebay is making money hand over fist. The tpgs are making their money, one cracked slab resubmission at a time. The auction houses are making their money. And these crooked sellers are making money, too. And while it is not easily proven, it is quite possible that at least some of these participants within the industry are acting in concert. But whatever their intentions, whether or not there is any collusion, their apathy is greatly detrimental to the hobby. Until these major players change their way of doing business, honest hobbyists will continue to suffer.

Look how long it took PSA to change their slabs. I returned to the baseball card hobby a little over three years ago, and it didn't take long after seeing my first graded card to discover how easily these cases could be cracked, leaving little to no evidence of chicanery. PSA continued to insist that their "tamper evident" slabs sufficiently deterred crooks, but the videos on Youtube showed otherwise. So, not only were collectors doling out huge sums of money for another person's expert opinion, now they had to worry about the very authenticity of the cards they were buying. I was horrified by PSA's indifference to the issue, as I'm sure many of you have been.

Knowing what we know, why would anybody want to get into our hobby for the first time? Kids aren't doing it, because companies like Topps, Donruss, and Upper Deck priced them out of the market. When I was a child, I'd get a couple bucks from my dad, go down to the local card shop, and buy some packs. Then, I'd come home, and trade with my friends. Kids can't afford to spend $100 on a box that has 10 cards inside. And if kids aren't getting into the hobby, they're not likely to invest in vintage or pre-war cards when they are older.

The hobby is saturated with the stench of greed, and crookedness. If we're ever going to see positive change, we need to band together, and exercise our buying power. Or, we'll just continue to get more of the same. More Josephs, and more tpgs not delivering what they promise.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The problem as I see it, gentlemen, is widespread indifference within the hobby.

I agree.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But whatever their intentions, whether or not there is any collusion, their apathy is greatly detrimental to the hobby.

I agree.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Until these major players change their way of doing business, honest hobbyists will continue to suffer.

I respectfully disagree.

It's the honest hobbyists who need to change their ways. The major players who you speak of have no reason to change, because to them the "hobby" matters less than their bottom line.

If honest hobbyists were to stop paying money to the people who get paid for their opinions, many of the problems within the hobby would go away.

The advent of the "chase" card was the beginning of the end, that's when people started looking at packs of cards as lottery tickets, that's when prices started being paid based on the potential lottery winner in the pack.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

... they're not likely to invest in vintage or pre-war cards ... The hobby is saturated with the stench of greed, and crookedness. If we're ever going to see positive change, we need to band together, and exercise our buying power.

The fact that you use the word "invest" illustrates why the "stench of greed, and crookedness" will always be with us, unless we follow your suggestion to "band together, and exercise our buying power" to NOT BUY lottery ticket items, be them cards or numbers on pieces of plastic.

But that will never happen, so my advice is to enjoy the part of the hobby that you enjoy, and do your best to ignore the rest of it.

Obviously, with this rant, I am failing miserably on that last part.

Happy hobbying,
Doug "I pretty much stopped buying new product in 1992" Goodman

[ullmandds]

je me souviens!

[john.clowes]

The competitiveness of the set registries over the past few years is driving a lot of folks to bend (or break or ignore) the rules, in my opinion. Folks are sitting on slabs, or perhaps buy new ones, but yet they watch their holdings get passed by in the standings on the registries. Pressure builds to crack slabs and do things to improve their positions. If the registries went away, perhaps the collective pressure to get to mint at all costs would be reduced to a more manageable level. My 2 cents that you got for free.

[robw]

Like with graded memorabilia, put an invisible stamp/id# only visible under blacklight, to the card....plus, the TPG's should have a scanned copy of all cards in their internal database. If a card is resubmitted with a stamp, they now can cross reference to see if card has been altered. I would gladly pay a few bucks more per card.

Rob

[conor912]

The saddest part is that this will all soon fade from the front page and it will be back to business as usual for Joe and his cohorts.

[botn]

Originally Posted by conor912

The saddest part is that this will all soon fade from the front page and it will be back to business as usual for Joe and his cohorts.

Exactly. Joe really did not have to reply. I think it hurt him more than it helped him. Despite evidence having been gathered very quickly on just a few cards, obviously there are many others, law enforcement will not do anything with this information and the hobby has memory problems and a very high tolerance for crap like this. Before this even fades from the first page I can assure you most people who have read and/or posted on the threads have already moved on.

If you look at the thread created by Joe, I think there are more OT and humorous posts than posts attributed to the topic. So Joe, if you are reading this, do not lose sleep over this thing.

[ullmandds]

Maybe there should be a section in the archive on this site that discusses suspect sellers/auction houses. Maybe a timeline of hobby indescretions over the last decade up to present...naming names...so users of this message board will have such info to help with future transactions?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe there should be a section in the archive on this site that discusses suspect sellers/auction houses. Maybe a timeline of hobby indescretions over the last decade up to present...naming names...so users of this message board will have such info to help with future transactions?

That's not a bad idea. A lot of message boards have a section in them where known scammers and/or suspect sellers are kept. The section would need to be closely moderated to avoid false and/or salicious allegations, but it could be done, and it's a good resource for buyers...

[baez578]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

That's not a bad idea. A lot of message boards have a section in them where known scammers and/or suspect sellers are kept. The section would need to be closely moderated to avoid false and/or salicious allegations, but it could be done, and it's a good resource for buyers...

+1 ... Great idea

[Exhibitman]

Peter, Peter, cardboard dealer
Had a card that was a beater
Cracked it out and did resend
Now he's spinning; nuf ced!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Peter, Peter, cardboard dealer
Had a card that was a beater
Cracked it out and did resend
Now he's spinning; nuf ced!

Lol!

I re-wrote the second half...

Peter, Peter, cardboard dealer
Had a card that was a beater
Cracked it out, doctored it up
Paid $50 and got a bump.