Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

I'm not even downtown Brooklyn's leading expert. That's why I submitted cards and paid the fees, to take advantage of the graders' expertise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, even if they offered that option which they probably wouldn't because of the implication that they will do a worse job for $5, that only takes care of cards you submit yourself, and doesn't help at all in terms of buying cards already graded in the marketplace.

[HRBAKER]

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

[barrysloate]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

That's exactly right Jeff. The slab gives everyone a free pass.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Collectors don't care enough to change things. Criminal deterrence is one possibility, but I am not sure how realistic proof beyond a reasonable doubt in this context is, even assuming a governmental body deemed this an important enough issue to devote lots of funding to, and even then, most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

Hey no plugs. He can afford a banner ad.

[barrysloate]

I do believe Peter, that although we always say "buy the card, not the holder", a great majority of collectors do in fact swear by the label. If a card is trimmed but the label says 8, all is well with the world.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses that facilitate them have made it a very difficult hobby to navigate for people who care to some extent about having unaltered cards in decent grades. The best I have been able to figure out is to scrutinize cards pretty carefully within the limits of my knowledge of how to detect alterations, to avoid certain sellers like the plague they are, and to VCP every card I am thinking of buying to see if it can be traced to one of those sellers. But I am sure it is only effective to a limited extent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

I am sure the grading services do the best they can, but the economics of the business, as well as the greater skills of card doctors, limit their effectiveness.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by botn

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by atx840

A $600 increase.

BOUGHT

SOLD

The real shocker i see here is the mental status of the buyers!
investors?, registry nuts in search of false glory?! i can't imagine a true collector paying over 14 times more for a card in a psa 8 holder even know
they're not capable of being able to tell the difference over a much cheaper
and absolute same looking psa7, you hear from many wanna be collectors say,
buy the card not the holder BUT this are the ones paying that crazy money
for that one higher grade!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

So are you going to stop buying graded cards?

[D.P.Johnson]

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

[MattyC]

Peter, no, not at all. I will happily continue to collect. I just think that what sometimes gets lost in the discussion, with there being more than enough (deserved) blame to direct at the card doctors, is the responsibility of the TPGs to keep stepping their game up. That's all.

Often times they do charge way more than $5 for their service. Depending on the value and turnaround time requested, a single card can cost quite a bit more than single digits.

Everyone has their own expectations and tolerance for those expectations not being met. I respect those differences in all of us. To each their own.

That said, I'd love to have bosses or customers who look at my performance when it's off and simply say, 'That's okay, you are doing your best.' It's impossible to quantify or know how hard the TPGs are trying, which makes any healthy debate difficult. All we can see is some of what gets through, and some of what is grossly misgraded. I would actually agree that they get it right the vast majority of the time, so the question each individual has their own right to answer is: what success rate is expected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

[ullmandds]

I for one do not believe that the third-party graders Are doing the best that they possibly can!

[nolemmings]

I for one do not believe that the third-party graders Arguing the best that they possibly can!

+1

[Cardboard Junkie]

I suspect that the sellers, the consigners, the third party graders, the card doctors, are all in cahoots, and they all belong in the hoosegow. Dave.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

+1

[botn]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

Well of course, but my point was that the people who are in charge with catching the bad guys do not always get them despite doing everything in their power. So what are the alternatives?

[CW]

Originally Posted by pepis

The real shocker i see here is the mental status of the buyers!
investors?, registry nuts in search of false glory?! i can't imagine a true collector paying over 14 times more for a card in a psa 8 holder even know
they're not capable of being able to tell the difference over a much cheaper
and absolute same looking psa7, you hear from many wanna be collectors say,
buy the card not the holder BUT this are the ones paying that crazy money
for that one higher grade!

While I agree that is a crazy premium for an "8" over a "7", on that specific card there is more to the story. The O'Rourke card is one of the top 2 toughest cards in the set to get in a PSA 8 grade. Still a crazy price, but that explains the big premium being paid. Many collectors who choose to build that set shoot for all 8s.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Unfortunately, many will deal with it by choosing to leave the hobby.

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

Most likely because his checks clear.

[4815162342]

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

[tribefan]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

It is, to a degree. PSA charges more to grade a $1000 card than a $100 card. The $5 grading fees being referenced are only for sub $100 cards, or so they state. Maybe the big guys get a different break.

The card doctors will always be one step ahead of the authenticator, much like the PED users are one step ahead of the enforcers.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

Because, in theory, they spend as much time grading and authenticating a $5 cards as they do a $500. In their minds, same amount of work for each card = same grading fee for each card.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

Their sigma level is where they can afford it to be, probably a 3 (93.3% accuracy). To lower it significantly would be cost prohibitive. The cost of raising their effectiveness to a 4 (99.4%) could possibly mean that the price per card that has been discussed would be a pipe dream. I would estimate it to be in the $75 range.

As someone mentioned, the higher price would preclude many lower end cards from being submitted. This would have the dual effect of reducing the cost and improving accuracy. However, the cost would still be much higher than the present, as the decrease in volume would necessitate an increase in margin.

As in everything in life, you get what you pay for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jack Welch and baseball cards, eh?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

From PSA's website:

The Advantages of PSA Grading

PSA provides expert analysis and protection for your collectibles. Using state-of-the-art, proprietary methods, the hobby's most astute and knowledgeable grading experts render carefully considered, unbiased third-party opinions of grade. When you see a card/ticket in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you can be confident that the card/ticket has been properly authenticated and graded by the experts at Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA). These are some of the attributes that have made PSA the largest and most respected third-party grading and authentication service in the world.

http://www.psacard.com/About/WhyPSA

I highlighted the word "confident" because the foundation of any con game is confidence. When people like myself have openly complained about doctored cards getting past the graders with credible proof, PSA has taken a very aggressive adversarial position against myself and others such as banning us from their message boards and club memberships and nothing has obviously been done to address the problem.

At what point does proven incompetence with no diligent attempt fix the problem encroach actions of fraud? What about causes of action such as gross negligence for failing to fix a problem that you are aware of or unjust enrichment which is unjustly profiting from fraud? As I've said many times before, you don't have to have purchased a doctored card to be a victim; card doctoring devalues good cards by artificially inflating the supply of the same cards.

[D.P.Johnson]

I wonder if the people who've recently bought these altered cards are aware they've been altered??? If not, it wouldn't be too difficult to let them know.
I'm sure some of them won't be too happy knowing the card they just spent thousands of dollars on was recently altered by "Joe", and if they ever attempt to resell it knowing it's been altered, they could be also be held liable. I also think if PSA and/or SGC keeps letting "Joe" submit cards after knowing he has purposely altered them in the past, and another one of them "accidently" slips by their graders...well...let's just say I hope they have good attorneys. Perhaps a class action lawsuit is in order...

[Peter_Spaeth]

A class action lawsuit sounds like a great idea. I just have four questions for you and I'll get right to work on it. Who should be our named plaintiff? How should we define the class? Who should we sue? And what should we sue them for?

[thehoodedcoder]

are you an attorney?

kevin

[nolemmings]

With that avatar of his you dare to ask such a question?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

With that avatar of his you dare to ask such a question?

Todd you crack me up. PS I would have chosen Mr. Rogers but it was taken.

[frankbmd]

Kangaroo Court is Peter's area of expertise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Kangaroo Court is Peter's area of expertise.

Owch. LOL.

[D.P.Johnson]

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

OK I'll keep my day job for now. On a serious note, I think there are quite a few "Joe"s out there. And the problem is even if they banned Joe, he would just submit through somebody else.

[thehoodedcoder]

im still waiting for the giant hammer i hear is coming.

kevin

[botn]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by botn

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

Good points. And, I agree, Dan Markel's posts are awesome...

[pepis]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

From PSA's website:

The Advantages of PSA Grading

PSA provides expert analysis and protection for your collectibles. Using state-of-the-art, proprietary methods, the hobby's most astute and knowledgeable grading experts render carefully considered, unbiased third-party opinions of grade. When you see a card/ticket in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you can be confident that the card/ticket has been properly authenticated and graded by the experts at Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA). These are some of the attributes that have made PSA the largest and most respected third-party grading and authentication service in the world.

http://www.psacard.com/About/WhyPSA

I highlighted the word "confident" because the foundation of any con game is confidence. When people like myself have openly complained about doctored cards getting past the graders with credible proof, PSA has taken a very aggressive adversarial position against myself and others such as banning us from their message boards and club memberships and nothing has obviously been done to address the problem.

At what point does proven incompetence with no diligent attempt fix the problem encroach actions of fraud? What about causes of action such as gross negligence for failing to fix a problem that you are aware of or unjust enrichment which is unjustly profiting from fraud? As I've said many times before, you don't have to have purchased a doctored card to be a victim; card doctoring devalues good cards by artificially inflating the supply of the same cards.

Hello Dan,
good points! here is a thread from early this year making similar points
on the problem.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=161528&page=2

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

Greg,

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm certain I'm not the smartest one here, but I've definitely been through the School of Hard Knocks on this topic.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Jose and Dan,

Thanks for the props.

That thread that Jose alluded to has been very typical of what many PSA collectors, including myself, came to realize. There really doesn't appear to be much accountability on PSA's part in all of this.

[EvilKing00]

hmmm don't think any one said it yet, so I guess I have to, lol buy the card not the grade, lol.

Anyway just my 2 pennies below.....

I do buy graded cards BUT I buy the card and not its grade. I like buying graded cards because it at least authenticates the card for me. (that is if someone didn't fake the slab, or crack it and replace a fake card)

I am NO EXPERT, and I hope all the graded cards I buy are "REAL" cards. The eye appeal I can judge for my self.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

hmmm don't think any one said it yet, so I guess I have to, lol buy the card not the grade, lol.

Anyway just my 2 pennies below.....

I do buy graded cards BUT I buy the card and not its grade. I like buying graded cards because it at least authenticates the card for me. (that is if someone didn't fake the slab, or crack it and replace a fake card)

I am NO EXPERT, and I hope all the graded cards I buy are "REAL" cards. The eye appeal I can judge for my self.

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

agreed, I recently bought a T205, that "looked like the red ink was missing, as the red was DEFF Orange. When I got the card it was RED. Seller took it back though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This post is somewhat related to the topic at hand. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but felt this was worth mentioning and really didn't want to start another thread to do so, so I just posted it here. Take a look at this '34 Goudey. What once was a PSA 6.5 is now an SGC 8.5.







Here are the things to look for:
1.) Faint white "triangle" shape mark on stomach of the silhouette of the ballplayer (on right) in the yellow background.
2.) White dot on left player silhouette in background.
3.) Numerous stray marks between #37 and Lou Gehrig on back of card
4.) Marks below the "h" in Gehrig on the signature on back of card.
5.) Marks below the words "left-handed" on back of card.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again. I've had several bumps over the years and I realize cards get bumped every day, but nothing like this. I would love to sit down with the grader from PSA and the grader from SGC and ask each one of them what they saw that determined their opinion on the grade of this card. It sickens my stomach that we're paying these "professionals" to give us their opinion, when their opinion can make the difference of thousands of dollars on any given day.

All that said, I don't think this is a Joe P bump. Otherwise, he would have consigned it to Probstein (anything is possible I guess though). I would like to know if Bussineau is the owner of this card or just a consignor and would also love to know who owned it at the time it was bumped from a 6.5 to an 8.5.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

It does appear to be the same card, especially when viewing all the tiny print flaws on the back. The upper right front corner (or upper left rear corner) appears to have gotten noticeably sharper and that same corner has that "batwing" look. Very bothersome indeed.

[GasHouseGang]

I believe the Gehrigs are the same card, but something happened to it between PSA and SGC. The back discoloration seen in the PSA holder is gone as seen in the SGC holder. It's possible that it is because of the scanner setting, but it looks like it has been cleaned.