T206 Blue Old Mill

[Ronnie73]

The name does look too dark but could just be the picture. When i look at the back of the card on the computer, it looks blue but on my phone, the back looks more black. I think this is gonna be one of those cards that has to be viewed in person.

[packs]

It doesn't look hand cut to me. It looks like a normal card with an abnormal back. SGC determined that the card is standard length and width when it decided not to give it an AUTH grade. That would mean that there would have to be at least one entire sheet of blue backs, no? Why would they print just the one blue back, right?

Would like to see a better picture of the front. The font looks way too dark to me. Even though its slabbed and I trust SGC, I'm thinking reprint. It seems fishy that the ink is blue and the reprinted backs also have blue ink. I would feel the same way about a brown or green Polar Bear back.

[t206hound]

I looked at it today. Appeared factory cut to me. With the lighting at the national I had trouble seeing the color, but ag was with me and immediately said polar bear blue

[AndyG09]

Completely agree with the Erick on the factory cut. 100% legit Polar Bear blue Old Mill back. The owner stated he been getting lots of offers. Glad I was able to hold it and get a good look at it. Pretty cool that it was Ed Walsh on front as well.

Best,

Andy

[ullmandds]

Or maybe someone created this card to prove a point?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Or maybe someone created this card to prove a point?

+1

Does anyone know where it came from? This isn't one of those behind the table national cards, is it?

[vintagetoppsguy]

How do you guys know it's factory cut? By no means am I saying you're wrong because I don't know enough about T206 to make that determination and I didn't get the chance to look at it in person, but how do you explain the extra large borders?



Edited to add: the outline around the picture is very faint, almost non-existent.

[packs]

If it was hand cut it wouldn't receive a numerical grade. SGC determined it was factory cut.

[AndyG09]

The owner has been in the hobby a long time and is a respectable dealer. Said he bought in box full of tobacco cards twenty years ago. He knew it was different, but waited until now to break it out for the world to see.

[atx840]

Card looks 100% authentic to me, no indication of being hand cut. I think an authentic grade would have helped in this case.

I'm going with faded/altered back.

[rdwyer]

The name is brown. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker.

[caramelcard]

Looks black to me.

If it appears blue in person, it's the result of black ink fading over time or reacting to something. It wasn't printed with blue ink. Not sure why SGC would give it that designation.

[frankbmd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzRS2...eature=related

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by AndyG09

The owner has been in the hobby a long time and is a respectable dealer. Said he bought in box full of tobacco cards twenty years ago. He knew it was different, but waited until now to break it out for the world to see.

It seems odd that someone would hold on to that secret for 20 years, especially a dealer... Is it ok to say who?

[Blunder19]

Hey Frank ...I think this ones a little better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWmF_2u-9nk

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Looks black to me.

If it appears blue in person, it's the result of black ink fading over time or reacting to something. It wasn't printed with blue ink. Not sure why SGC would give it that designation.

This sums up my feelings as well. I have seen many backs of almost all T206 brands with variations in the depth of color. While not knowing the source and composition of ALC's black dye (or blue dye, for that matter), it seems much more likely that this represents a faded or poorly mixed dye lot, rather than a color variation planned in advance at the time of printing.

[z28jd]

Unless these pictures aren't doing the blue justice, I would think there could be plenty of these out there and no one ever noticed. If no one mentioned this was a blue back and just posted the scan, I don't think anyone would've known. Hopefully it looks more blue in person, otherwise it just looks like a variation in color that you see with almost every back. You could make a paint chart out of the different shades of blue you see with piedmonts

[packs]

I'm thinking black variation like everyone else. SGC might want to think about re-holdering?

[ethicsprof]

i'm with rob a and judson.
Black to black/blue---sorta like a bruise.
best,
barry

[rdwyer]

"Old Mill" is definitely blue. The frame is dark grey. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker. Nice pickup.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

"Old Mill" is definitely blue. The frame is dark grey. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker. Nice pickup.

Was the frame printed in a separete pass?

[atx840]

Backs are susceptible to fading/changing. The Hindu was listed as a blank back a few years ago at Legendary, the AB belonged to a fellow boardmember.

[srs1a]

Interesting card, for sure and a tough front/back combination. I just looked and out of ~250 Walsh's graded by SGC there are only 2 Old Mills. I thought mine was the only one in SGC's pop report, but now there is a 2nd and it is a 30 -- perhaps that is the card under discussion. An image of mine is attached.



Regarding the comment about a weak border around the image, note that mine is missing a good chunk of the frame on the right side. Perhaps things got worse as they printed the OMs (and ran out of black ink ) Maybe I better run upstairs and see if I can squint enough to make my back blue, too!

Originally Posted by atx840

Backs are susceptible to fading/changing. The Hindu was listed as a blank back a few years ago at Legendary, the AB belonged to a fellow boardmember.

Dan has that Hindu ghost.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by srs1a

Interesting card, for sure and a tough front/back combination. I just looked and out of ~250 Walsh's graded by SGC there are only 2 Old Mills. I thought mine was the only one in SGC's pop report, but now there is a 2nd and it is a 30 -- perhaps that is the card under discussion. An image of mine is attached.



Regarding the comment about a weak border around the image, note that mine is missing a good chunk of the frame on the right side. Perhaps things got worse as they printed the OMs (and ran out of black ink ) Maybe I better run upstairs and see if I can squint enough to make my back blue, too!

I find this very interesting. Ten years ago I had several Old Mill backs that, if you had never seen a brown one before, you would have said were dark brown. But board members agreed that these were not the same as the lighter-brown 'official' brown Old Mill. They were, of course correct; however, my dark brown ones were at least as far away from the 'normal' black Old Mills as is this blue one.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I find this very interesting. Ten years ago I had several Old Mill backs that, if you had never seen a brown one before, you would have said were dark brown.

+1 scan quality and lighting can make a big difference.

I took a chance on this Ellam, looked to be handcut and is a possible br OM combo...their scans vs mine.

[steve B]

A couple technical points to consider.

There are few common black pigments for printing inks, especially from the 1910 era. The common ones are carbon black and lampblack, both forms of carbon. Neither of those fades. And neither are prone to simple color changes.
Iron gall ink will initially write bluish black, but the real stuff will eventually turn brownish. And it's not typically used for printing. Pens yes, printing no.

India ink can also turn blue, but I've only heard of that on tattoos. And it also isn't used much in printing.

Green and brown are completely different, and can be changed/bleached.


The polar bear blue would have been made by mixing some blue with some black, possibly with other colors added.

I can think of a few scenarios where the wrong color might get used, and if they were producing millions of cards any one of them could have happened.
So it's a very interesting card for a lot of reasons.

Someone proving a point? Wow, if that's it they've done it. And if that's it our hobby just got very complex. I doubt it, but I suppose it's technically possible.

Steve B

[2dueces]

Just wierd that only one has surfaced in 100 years. Maybe printed on the same sheet as the Wags and Plank. They were printed in blue ink. . Maybe that story of printed all those fakes in the 70's is not really a story. They were printed as jokes and impossible combinations so they couldnt fool any body. They all had a good laugh back then and I wonder if they are all having a good laugh at us now?

[E93]

I examined the card closely today under a lighted loupe and believe it is legit. I compared it very carefully, back and forth, with a regular black Old Mill. There is no doubt it is blue and not faded black. It also seemed apparent to me that ink laid/adhered in the same way on both the black and the blue. In other words, the way the ink looked on the cardboard, other than being a different color, looked the same on the two. Everybody that saw in in person at the National, including many of the most knowledgeable people in the hobby agreed that it looked real.
JimB

[Bocabirdman]

This is the ONLY original. All of the rest of the Old Mill T-206 cards in the hobby are bogus.

[jimross]

This new OM blue back "find" is collectors nightmare since most OM reprints are printed in red, green or BLUE.

Good luck hunting!

[Gradedcardman]

The card is a beauty !! I didn't loop it but have looked at it a few times and would love to own it.

[Leon]

I looked at it about 5 different times. In some lighting I couldn't discern the color difference, mostly due to a bit of color blindness I have, but when over at the Heritage Auction, where the owner and I chatted for quite a while....in that lighting, I could definitely see the blue. I could tell it more on the back, outer border than the letter printing on the back. Every single person that looked at it, some very, very experienced, think it's legit. I think the real question is "does this add to the list of backs or not?"

[barrysloate]

I can assure you the guy who buys is it will say it adds to the known master set of T206 backs.

I'm curious whether this was a deliberate attempt to use different color ink, say a test run using blue, or merely a chemical reaction over time causing the black to turn blue. Now I don't know if that is even possible, but I am by nature skeptical so when a new T206 color variation shows up for this first time at this late date, I have to wonder.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm curious whether this was a deliberate attempt to use different color ink, say a test run using blue...

That's certainly possible. I was thinking just the opposite though. Maybe the sheet was ran through accidentally with blue ink. The printer realized his mistake and said, "Oh, crap!" and threw the sheet in the garbage and later sombeody pulled it out and hand cut the cards - thus the extra wide borders on that card. Is that possible?

I haven't seen anybody address the wide borders.

[ullmandds]

As a recovering type collector...and a former rare backed t206 addict...I can certainly relate to the desire for absolute completeness in a type collection...but I am still skeptical of this card.

I have not seen the card in person but I trust those who have and if their opinion is that it looks real...than it must be!

But in no way would I feel that a blue backed OM is now necessary to complete a complete t206 back run...this is some type of anomaly...whether factory produced by accident...or chemically, UV altered over time...or just outright altered by a card MD...in my opinion.

[MVSNYC]

Leon- in order for that happen, a second one would need to surface to confirm its a legit color variation. I'm still skeptical, as others have mentioned, the front including the name looks rather dark. There were some really good fakes/reprints produced (in the 80's I believe), that were very convincing. As a T206 back collector, the possibility that this is legit is exciting, but I'm just not sure. The above blue AB that Chris posted (due to ink oxidation) makes this topic have a major grey area.

Getting on Amtrak in NYC now to head down to Baltimore. See u guys later today.

[CMIZ5290]

If this card is indeed the real deal, what are the opinions as to the potential price?

[wolf441]

If the card is legit, it will make the # of collectors with a complete back run a very short list!

[wonkaticket]

I will be seeing the card today the owner and I have been chating I look forward to seeing it.

[MVSNYC]

Saw the card under a loop today with Wonka. I stand corrected...the ink is certainly blue, card is legit. I believe they were printing polar bear at the time and ran the back side thru (maybe). But it's real.

[cobblove]

Can I have it?

[CMIZ5290]

does anyone know who owns it?

[Vegas-guy]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Saw the card under a loop today with Wonka. I stand corrected...the ink is certainly blue, card is legit. I believe they were printing polar bear at the time and ran the back side thru (maybe). But it's real.

Now the question is. Is it for sale? (not that I could afford it..)

[ullmandds]

It'd be nice to see a reg old mill next to a brown om...next to this new blue one to compare!

Can anyone facilitate this?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

does anyone know who owns it?

I believe its on Neptune, waiting for a buyer.

[jimross]

I wonder how many people checked their collections in the past few days and see what color their OM backs are. LOL

I scanned every old mill at the nationals in the last 2 days and there is no blues there. Card is getting some really high offers. Just a neat find for the hobby. You never know what you may have laying around.

[E93]

JimB

[danmckee]

I saw the card raw. The owner has had it for years and I have known him for 35 years. The card is blue and unaltered. Dan Mckee.