Interesting article

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Posted By: Jim VB

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/article/nerattowle


I think we had a thread about this guy a while back. I liked the article, but wish Chris Nerat had been tougher on him.

I also suspect Towle isn't alone in his actions, but is taking a calculated gamble that the new business he gets from this publicity will outweigh the criticism he may take.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, he said he's worked on 15,000-18,000 cards.

Does anyone doubt that virtually all of them now reside in holders?

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Posted By: Anonymous

i have actually dealt with him before. Very honest and very straight forward. Kinda goes back to my orignial theory that grading companies are pretty much useless and should be done away with unless authenticating a card. How many times have you heard a story about a card being one grade, sent back and getting another one.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Great Steve. And we all know how honest and upstanding you are.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1187435714/last-1224486428/Bad+eBay+seller+-+dspbaba999

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Posted By: Dan Paradis

Nice article. I know I'm in the minority (at least with the N54 group), but
I don't care if any of the cards I purchased had ink, stains, etc. removed.

I would care about any other type of altering (trimming, removing creases, adding color, etc.)

Dan

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Posted By: Anonymous

yes me and the other 15,000 cards that apparently were trusted in his hands were trusted by dick towle. As for integrity my 100% feedback speaks for itself and as for you, this site is for hobbyiest not for negativity. thanks for the kind thoughts

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

The syte obviussly refuses to pass judgmant on thurd grad splling.

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Posted By: jdrum

how long it is before he figures out that he needs to charge more per card based on the value of the card. You know, insurance being what it is and all.

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Posted By: marty q

'gometsgo" put your name to your post, forum rules pal. just like jim vb says, your a liar and thief, if this "card thug" ever post"s in the b/s/t everyone should know what you do to rip people off!!! for thos who dont know click on the link from jim vb...a real winner this guy. all have been warned.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Geesh marty! Subtle as a baseball bat!

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Posted By: Dave F

This is all bad, bad, bad. "gometsgomets" is NOT to be trusted in any fashion...besides all the stuff on the non-sports side, I've had my own run-ins with him. Frankly I'm sick of this dirtbag getting away with what he gets away with and creating new id's every two minutes.






http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1206535879/last-1208304492/Beware+of+Scammer.....AKA+Steve+Schwartz

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Posted By: leon

Had we not known your name from the non-sports side your post would have been deleted per the forum rules....regards

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Posted By: Paul S

...I can't say this surprises me at all -- possibly just the total amount of cards by a single person (family biz, really.) Mantles being about the most worked on card was a no-brainer.
I don't think Chris should have been more harsh, it was good Dragnet journalism: "Just the facts, Sir." Putting the guy on the defensive might have made him less forthcoming.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Is it true that there is paint that can be used to restore an object that will not show up in a black light inspection? If so, then is there any way to know (short of perhaps chemical analysis) that the object has been touched up?

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Posted By: JB

Wow.....very, very interesting. Interesting point made about not adding to the cards.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Art and antiquities experts use infrared light, with infrared light being on the other side of the light spectrum than black light and testing the material in a different way. You can do both simple and advanced tests with infrared light, from 'seeing how the material looks' to identifying the chemical makeup. You can buy an infrared viewer, though they're more expensive than black lights and not so simple to use. A total beginner can usefully use a black light, but you have to more know what you are doing to use an infrared viewer.

An expert would examine paint or whatever using both UV and IR light, each test double checking the other and picking up what the other might miss.

Interestingly, ancient manuscript historians and archeologists use infrared viewers to pick up hidden (faded away, etc) writing, so an infrared viewer might be useful in picking up removed writing on a card.

The crux of the infrared viewer and examination is that the infrared viewer allows the examiner to 'see' infrared light (normally invisible to human eyes). Different materials emit different levels of infrared light, so materials that look identical under normal daylight conditions can look distinctly different from each other under an infrared viewer. Invisible ancient writing can be read under the infrared viewer.

In fact, many art and furniture dealers use infrared viewers specifically to identify restoration. It's probable that these dealers also own a black light.

The more tests you have (black light + opacity + gloss+ infrared viewer + etc), the more likely you will identify restoration. Restoration and forgery might fool one test, but won't fool all the tests-- in particular as each test is testing a different quality. And I can almost promise you that no baseball card restorer is calibrating the infrared light emissions of his paints and glues. A university chemistry professor probably couldn't successfully do this. And if you change the infrared emissions of your paint, you probably simultaneously changed the black light fluorescence or visible color or other quality. Changing one quality changes another-- which makes it near impossible to fool all the tests in a quality series of tests.

And notice that many of the tests I included are simple ones-- opacity, gloss, etc. One of the hardest things to duplicate in a reprint or counterfeit is the gloss.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

David,

That was useful. Thanks. Follow-up question -- are there paints used for restoration that would not show up under either infrared or black light?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Corey, most baseball cards give off some fluorescence and infrared light. Even an Old Judge has a bit of a glow under a black light. A paint that gives off no UV fluorescence or infrared light would be identifiable on most cards, because it would differ from the card. It would appear as a black splotch on that Old Judge.

Trying to get the perfect UV fluorescence, IR emission and visible qualities (color, texture, etc) in a paint is like trying to get a football player to simultaneously be a great NFL offensive lineman, passing quarterback and corner back. It's safe to say it can't be done, and you'd be a fool to even try. Adding the needed 160 offensive lineman pounds to your star cornerback turns him into a bad cornerback, and similar happens when you tinker with the paint qualities.

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Posted By: MW

I agree with David. The idea that there are certain types or modes of restoration that cannot be detected is a myth. There are experts in the hobby who can detect ANY type of deceptive alteration, no matter how meticulous and undetectable it may appear to the untrained and unaided eye.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Thanks David. So bottom line is that for someone with the right equipment who knows what he is doing, as a practical matter he will be able to detect any restorative paint applied to an item (be it a baseball card or memorabilia)?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

A VSC would certainly detect any alterations, provided that the person using the machine is properly trained in its use.

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Posted By: DICK TOWLE

I HAVE RECEIVED 56 EMAILS AND PRODUCTS SENT TO ME TO HELP CUSTOMERS. ALL I EVER SAID IS I REMOVE JUNK THAT IS ON CARDS,REMOVE INDENTS, AND MUCH MORE, BUT NEVER ADDING ANYTHING TO A CARD- THAT IS PURE FRAUD. I WOULD LIKE TO ALL WHO EMAILED ME FROM NET 54, YOU ALL HAVE BEEN VERY POLITE. THIS IS A CLASS FORUM, HOPE I CAN HELP MANY MORE OVER THE YEARS. THANKS TO ALL

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Dick, I agree there's a difference between adding paint for fakery reasons and removing gum stains or scrapbook paper. Scrapbook glue and paper is not an original part of a card. A pen marked card is not the card in the original state. The pen mark was an alteration.

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Posted By: JimB

Dick,
A piece of advice: The "Cap Lock" key is on the left side of your keyboard. You definitely do not want to have yourself grouped with others who type their messages in all upper case letters.
JimB

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Posted By: DMCD

MAYBE THAT'S HOW HE ROLLS

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Posted By: Mark

A follow-up question for David, Jodi, or anyone who knows. This is with regard to cards emitting ulraviolet/infrared/fluorescent light...

If experts can really detect "any type of deceptive alteration" as stated above... does that include soaking? If a card has been soaked for the purpose of removing paper residue (as an example), would Infrared/UV light reveal evidence of the soaking?

It's just water... I would think that soaking covers the entire card in uniform fashion, so no "problem areas" would stand out or provide a red flag. Any thoughts?

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Posted By: Steve

I'm no expert, but distilled water is the key to removing some residue/scraps. Tap water may contain minerals, KHO, chlorine even fecal coliform that may luminesce.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Mark,

It's certainly a good point. In my business, I have never really had need to check for this, so I can't give you a definite answer. I can assure you that VSCs will pick up even the most subtle difference in ink and paper (with regard to both paper loss and rebuilding), but that is common knowledge. If I can think of anything pertinent to add to this discussion, I will do so later.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know how it would work with water and removed glue. My scenarios involved material being added.

There's a guy who removes signatures from baseballs, and the removed area is visible with a black light.

Of interesting note, you can see through some surfaces with an infrared light-- ala seeing the original sketch or painting behind a painting.
.
An interesting book is 'Fake?' by the British Musuem. It's not a technical how to guide, but shows how ancient vases, paintings, furniture, sculptures were identified as fakes by the London museum. Techniques include infrared, ultraviolet, X-rays and dendrology. They determined the age of ancient wooden objects by studying the rings in the wood, knowing when great environmental catastrophies were that would show up in the rings. In another example, they determined the Ancient Greek statues were actually forgeries by the Ancient Romans.

I have an infrared viewer, but don't specialize in studying alterations issues-- which isn't to say I'm oblivious to it, just that it's not my specialty area.