T206 SOVEREIGN....master set mission

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Borrowing the last lines from the 1974 movie The Sting....when Paul Newman asks Robert Redford
(after they pulled off the elaborate "Sting" on Robert Shaw)......"Was that as good as it gets ?"
Redford replies....."No".....then smiles, and says....."but it was damn close".

Well, that scene reflects my feelings regarding my T206 all-SOVEREIGN set.

Its been 6 months since I put together this set. Still need the elusive Red Cobb with the SOV 460
back to have 410 cards, which completes this basic set.
Yes, a tremendous achievement; but, not good enough.

I've continued collecting the Sovereign's in order to attain a "master set". I have the 140 cards in
the 150/350 series with their SOV 150 backs. If I have done my homework correctly, approx. 80
of these 140 Subjects were also printed with SOV 350 backs. So far, I've acquired 40 of these
additional 80 cards.....and, I am very happy to say that my research shows that the Green Cobb
is one of 60 cards in this series that were never printed with the SOV 350 back.
I have both the 150 & 350 backs on the other Cobb (bat on) in the 150/350 series. So, it should
be a downhill ride from here.

Griffith is my most recent pick-up in this endeavor.




TED Z

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Posted By: Craig W

Hi T-Rex,

I love to read about what people are accomplishing towards subsets of T206. You've done an incredible job with the all Sovereign set! Best wishes with your master set

Regards,
Craig

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks CRAIG

Before the SOVEREIGN set, I "completed" an all-PIEDMONT set and that was tough enough. So, I
have no interest in doing a master set with the PIEDMONT's. I am content with my 519-card set.

However, the SOVEREIGN brand really intrigues me, since I've learned to expect many "No Prints".
I enjoy the challenge of figuring out which cards were never printed with this T-brand. In the pro-
cess of putting together the basic 410-card SOVEREIGN set, I discovered that 66 Subjects were
never printed with the Sovereign brand (in addition to the "Big Six" and the 48 Southern Leaguers).

Regards,

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: barry arnold

Trex,
great looking Griffith!!!
i'm eager to see your progress as the hunt for this new GRAIL continues!!

all the best,
barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will keep you posted on my progress....after all, ever since your famous EPDG thread and Scot Reader's T206 book,
I have been on this adventure to collect T206 sets as a function of their T-brands.

Thanks Professor....for motivating me.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: barry arnold

Do keep me posted,TRex!!!
I surely wish my university students were as diligent and conscientious as you are!!!
Admittedly, you are truly the Full Professor of T206.

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: dan mckee

Now bust all of those slabbed Sovereigns and get them in the binder where they belong so i can see cards and not paper copies of them. That binder is a major accomplishment! Dan.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guy, you have to stop "busting my chops" on those 12 cards......because I aint going to "bust" them
out of their plastic tombs until I get their RAW equivalents.
You very well know the drill....I'll keep these in their Graded plastics, as they eventually will sell for some
nice $$$$ (as I replace them with their raw equivalents).

Here is the list of these 12 cards......

SOVEREIGN 150

M. Brown (port).......SGC40
Cobb (bat on)..........SGC50

SOVEREIGN 350

Campbell................SGC60......very tough
Cobb (red)..............PSA 3
Joe Doyle................PSA 4......very tough
Evers (yel sky).........PSA 4
Matty (dk cap).........PSA 3

SOVEREIGN 460

Chance (yel)...........SGC60......very tough
Duffy.....................SGC60
Evers (yel sky).........PSA 5......very tough
Matty (dk cap).........PSA 4
Wheat.....................PSA 4


Incidently....DAN, are you and I the last of a "vanishing breed" on Net54, that still have their sets in plastic
pages in albums ?


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: leon

I have my 1910 obak back set in plastic pages as well as my M101 back set in mostly plastic pages....I still have close to half of my collection as raw.....although 99% of my valuable cards are entombed.....Sorry I can't help on the T206 stuff too much.....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If I can assume FRANK WAKEFIELD has his sets in plastic sheets, then that makes four of us.....DAN.....FRANK.....YOU.....ME.
I'm sure there are others, we can't be the only remaining "Four Dinosaurs" of the Pre-Professional-Plastic Age on this forum ?

No sweat on the T206 Sovereign's....I just posted this list to "bug" Dan.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

You can add this 30 year old sometime poster/frequent lurker to the list of dinosaurs. While my collection pales in comparison, I do not own now, nor have I ever owned a graded card (nor do I plan on doing so in the future).
One of the "dinosaurs",
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

edited typo

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Posted By: Jay

Ted--All my baseball sets are in plastic pages.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ALAN and JAY

Great.....I wonder how many more collectors here have their vintage cards in plastic sheets ?

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Posted By: Deb Johnson

Chiming in as another frequent lurker ... my keepers are in plastic pages.
Deb

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Posted By: Craig W

My contemporary card complete sets (72-92 topps, 80's-90's donruss, fleer, score, bowman, upper deck) are all in plastic sheets.

But my vintage card collection (80+ T206s, 2 N172s, 6 T201s, and 2 T202s) that I started 6 months ago are all PSA graded and are shown off in 50-card display cases, except the t201s which are displayed on a book shelf. (I tried putting the slabs in large pocket sheet, but it didn't work too well. lol!) I don't own any raw vintage cards because I don't feel like I have enough experience to tell the difference between an authentic card and a well done reprint. If I ever do get to the point of collecting raw vintage
cards, they'll go into plastic sheets.

Regards,
Craig

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Plastic sheets for the most part for me, folks. However I do have some cards in boxes, although they used to be is sheets. I moved them to save on storage space.

Boxed: T206s, Diamond Stars, ZeeNuts Bowmans, all Topps other than 1967.

Sheets: T205, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 22s, all of my E cards, Colgans, Goudeys, Playballs, and 1967 Topps.

67 Topps was the first set I completed as a kid. I don't have those originals. But I've almost replaced them, I slowly pick up one or two...


I probably have less than half a dozen slabbed cards. One I'll give away to a kid one day, a couple I just haven't broken out yet.


The sheets that hold 15 cards look pretty good...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Sheets for me mostly. I have boxed Topps sets from 80-92(which I am getting rid of) and some oddities in slabs (a Carter Collection card, Overprinted 39 Play Ball) and I think any E cards I will keep slabbed as well but I like cards in sheets. I busted out my T206's (which admittedly are low grade) including all 4 Cobbs but if I had a Demmitt or O'Hara I would likely keep those slabbed.

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Posted By: Darren

I have many subjects of my collection in plastic pages. Almost 100% of my nonsport tobacco cards reside in pages.

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Posted By: Tim

I am in the same position as Craig.

My 70's-90's are in plastic sheets. But my T206's are all in graded holders. I would love to be able comfortably buy T206's in the raw, but don't yet have the knowledge to do so.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Ted, I have had pop spending the last several months taking all of my sets out of the old Rotman Acid plastics and putting them in the new Acid free plastics. He is actually enjoying the cards again. I just remember my good friend Scott with his Croft's Cocoa set that I was anxious to see, pulling out hands full of slabs. Yuk! took the fun of viewing a near full set right out of the picture for me. Great for single cards though. WOW! I am shocked by the number of plastic sheet users here!!! You bunch of entombment sinners!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Ted,

Looks like binders are more common than you thought. My T206 count is at 486 out of 524. All but 8 are raw and in binders. (Many have been liberated after they got here.)

My 1933 Goudey set is also raw and in binders, as is everything else post-war. Some of my pre-war stuff is graded, but not submitted by me.

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Posted By: Mike Ernst

My 520-card T-206 set, complete T-205, e90-3, e101, e98, e95, 48-55 Bowman, 52-75 Topps, etc, etc, all sets, are in albums rather than slabs. That way I can keep them in a large gun safe, at home, and look at them when I want to, rather than pay for storage for cards that I would seldom see.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

All-Piedmont album consisting of 40 plastic (15-pocket) sheets




TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff W.

My T206 set is raw and in a very nice binder. I do, however, buy most of my cards graded and crack them out once I receive them. I feel comfortable buying my cards from ebay only if they are graded. There are too many horror stories of people getting ripped off because somebody altered the scan or gave a false description. The only time I have ever bought raw T206's were from two very reputable people here on the BST.

The only thing I don't like about the binders is how the pages bend just a little bit on the corners. So, if I put all 15 cards in a page the one's on the corners of the pages bend just a little bit. I am thinking of getting page dividers cut to go in between the plastic sheets to keep them flat.

Any thoughts on that or am I the only one to experience it?

Jeff

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Posted By: Jim VB

Jeff,

I use the standard 9-pocket page. But I put each card in a small penny sleeve and a tobacco card top-loader before they go in the 9-pocket page. Pages still may dip a little, but the cards are protected.

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Plastic sheets for me as well. To each their own in the collecting world, plus I don't mind being known as a dinosaur.

RC

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have always put page separators between the plastic pages (so they wouldn't stick together) and I never
place valuable cards in the corner pockets. All my HOFers, or stars, are situated in the middle of the sheets.

TED Z

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Posted By: Drew

All of my sets are in plastic sheets and binders. Graded cards are cracked open when they arrive.

Drew

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I removed all my cards 14 years ago from the old plastic sheets after seeing front damage to four of my
1953 Bowman color cards. These cards (and all my sets) were in the old plastics since the early 1980's.
Fortunately, the cards affected were commons.

The Ultra-Pro sheets, and especially high quality mylar sheets, are safe to store and display cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- the early sheets had plastic made of polyvinyl chloride- PVC- and over time would do damage to the cards.

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Posted By: Jeff W.

Ted

The only problem with the page dividers that I have found is the are not as wide as the ultra pro 15 pocket pages. So, if I place them in between the page, I believe that the card might crease on the dividers. I was thinking of having some dividers actually cut bigger than the ultra pro pages so that the cards can rest on the dividers safely. Any thoughts?

Jeff

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The separators that I place between my plastic pages are standard 8 1/2 x 11 white paper (heavier gauge).
These should cover any size, any pocket plastic page.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The continuous array of SOVEREIGN backs can best be appreciated in 15-pocket sheets.



TED Z

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Posted By: Aaron Patton

...yep, I too am a 29-year old dinosaur; just picked up (3) binders for set-building.

I didn't know one's card collection could be enjoyed any other way!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Perhaps, we are not "DINOSAURS"....besides you and I, we have 16 - Net54 posters and 2
Net54 readers (who have emailed me) that prefer to store a part, or all of their BB cards in
plastic sheets in old-fashioned binders.

WOW....so far, that's a total of 20 - Net54er's. Dan, would you have guessed that many ?

I know that you and I are aware of many more fellow collectors (non-Net54er's) who have
their sets in binders, but this many Net54er's are more than I would have guessed.

So Net54er's....don't be shy....are there anymore that prefer plastic sheets and binders ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: leon

I have seen Brockelman's collection and know he has binders of cards. I also have seen my good friend John Esch's spectacular collection.....A lot of Scott's and almost ALL of the many thousands of cards John has are in binders....so there are 2 more....I think you would be surprised Ted to know of all of them......regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

No Ted, I actually thought I would be the only one using binders. I am usually on the side of the river by myself when I am on this board. Though I did have many supporters in my Mussina email! WOW! what a feeling to be in the majority, I never felt that before. Dan.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

"......I think you would be surprised Ted to know of all of them......"

Actually, I would not.....as I could mention quite a few collectors (Net54er's and non-Net54er's)
that I know of that have the majority of their collections in plastic sheets within binders.

I am surprised, though, that this many Net54er's posted their preferences to raw cards in plastic
sheets. As the prevalent mood on Net54 is in Graded cards. And therefore, many are reluctant to
admit having their collections in plastic sheets.....lest, someone will question whether their sharp
looking BB cards are "trimmed". People are very sensitive to comments like this.

The same goes for old-time collectors who personally acquired autographs from major stars (Ted
Williams, Joe DiMaggio, etc.); and, these autographs are now being challenged.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jim VB

1. Near consensus on Mussina.

2. Overwhelming support on binders/sheets.

3. Outing a fraudulent item in Mastro.

4. ????

Are you sure you didn't get a visit from the Pope when he was here, conferring a little of that "infallability" stuff on you? And... are you playing the lottery this weekend? <LOL>

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Since I'm a Yankees fan, tell your Dad I support him regarding Mussina. Should he achieve 300, he should
be inducted. If Mazeroski got in, then it's anyone's guess who will next be elected to the HOF. And YES,
there are many outstanding ballplayers (for whatever reasons) that are not in.....Bill Dahlen is one.

Ask your Dad what logo should appear on Mussina's cap on his HOF Plaque ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Don E.

I really like the idea of an all Sovereign set. At 524 for a complete "regular" set, minus the Southern Leaguers, = 476, minus the 410 Sovereign basic set = 66 cards.

Assuming I did the math correctly, do you have a list of the 66 cards that would not be needed for the all Sovereign basic set?

Thanks, and good luck on the master Sovereign set. That's a great accomplishment.

Don

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Posted By: dan mckee

Jim VB, that post was priceless!! I am just in a lucky streak I guess, that will end as soon as I buy a lottery ticket! But what the heck, I will give it a try.

Ted, pop lives and breathes the Orioles, I don't even need to ask him what team should be on the cap in his opinion. I do think it was only fair to Mike to to New York so that he could win a champioship. That wouldn't happen in Baltimore until we get a new owner.

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Posted By: Craig W

I believe 6 of the 66 that aren't found with Sovereign backs are:

Ray Demmitt - Standing - StL Browns
Joe Doyle - Hands above Head - NY Nat'l
Sherry Magie - Magee Error - Phil Phillies
Bill O'Hara - Batting - StL Cardinals
Eddie Plank - Portrait - Phil A's
Honus Wagner - Portrait- Pittsburgh

Regards,
Craig

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The "BIG SIX" are separate from my list of 66.

I'm typing up the list and will post it very soon.

TZ

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Of course the Joe Doyle error, Magie, Plank, Wagner and the St Louis Variations of Demmitt and O'Hara
do not exist as Sovereign's.


150 Series................1 Subject

Lundgren (Cubs)


350 Series...............63 Subjects

Abstein
Adkins
Arellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Cross
Davidson
Frank Delehanty
Demmitt (NY)
Dessau
Dorner
Elberfeld (port-Wash)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hunter
Davy Jones
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (KC)
Maddox
Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Dots Miller
Mullen (port)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett


460-only Series..........2 Subjects

Kleinow (Boston)
F Smith (Chi & Boston)

These are the 66 No-Prints in the basic set of 410 cards.

For a master set, my research indicates there are approx. 60 Subjects in the 150/350 Series that were
not printed with Sovereign 350 backs. A definitive list is not yet certain, but when I am confident in it,
I will post it.
Regarding the 150/350 Subjects....Jennings (portrait) card exists only with a SOV 350 back.


Thanks for your interest in this topic.

TED Z

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Posted By: Don E.

Thanks Ted! I appreciate you putting together the list. This is a neat set. I don't know a whole lot about the T-206 set, just the basics, but is the 66 card no-print list something absolutely known or is it known based on observed cards and subject to change?

Thanks again,

Don

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

With T206 sets (or sub-sets) there is no certainty other than an all-PIEDMONT set (522 different cards), or an
all-SWEET CAPORAL, Factory 30 set (471 different cards).

Prior to my putting together this SOVEREIGN set, I do not think it was known how many different cards would
comprise a complete set. I arrived at this list after observing over 6000 cards with Sovereign backs and com-
paring my findings with several surveys.

PIEDMONT set (522 cards......no Demmitt & O'Hara - St Louis vars.)

SWEET CAPORAL, Factory 30 set (471 cards......no Doyle error, Lundgren-Cubs, Magie, Demmitt & O'Hara, and
no 48 - Southern Leaguers)


TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

You said....."That wouldn't happen in Baltimore until we get a new owner."

Who is the owner of the Orioles ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My initial post here referred to approx. 60 cards from the 150/350 Series, that my research shows are not needed in pursuit
of a Sovereign master set. Provided here is a list of 65 cards that I think are Sovereign 350....NO-PRINTS.

Ames (hds/chest).......possible 150-only Subject
Ball (NY)
Beaumont
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (port)
Bransfield
Chase (pink)
Chesbro
F. Clarke (port)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Conroy (fldg)
Covaleski
Crandall (no cap)
Criss
Dahlen (Boston)
H. Davis
Delehanty (Wash)
Doolin
L. Doyle (throw).........possible 150-only Subject
Durham
Evers (port)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (NY)
Hinchman (Clev)
Tom Jones
Jordan (port)
Karger
Keeler (port)
Killian (throw)
Konetchy (glove/hi)
Lajoie (throw)
Lake (NY)
Leach (port)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Marquard (hds/side)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball/hand)
Mullin (horiz)
Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (port)
Schlei (catch)
Schmidt (throw)
Schulte (front)...........possible 150-only Subject
Shaw (St Louis)
Spencer
Steinfeldt (port)
L Tannehill
Tinker (port)
Waddell (throw)
Wagner (bat/left)
Wilhelm (hds/chest)
Williams

If anyone can prove me wrong by confirming any of these cards with a Sovereign 350 back, please post it here (or email me).
It will be greatly appreciated.


TED Z

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Posted By: David G

I am a 39 year old Dinosaur. All of my t sets (201, 205, 206, c46) are in sheets. I just like "flipping through the book" with my sons.

Yes, I know C46 is not a t set but it fits the theme!