REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

Act 1909 no series 1910 allows for only that year although could have an actual production date any time AFTER that. Tax stamps could be purchased IN ADVANCE. Overprint still needed to help define the flashpoint (within days of actual sale) - cards were not inserted on January first.... Think production/distribution for T206's first began just before baseball season that year (would make sense). The T206 collectors or people that collect the related newspaper and print advertising should be able to add something here. As we have learned - there were many series thought to be issued in that exact time period. Next comes the problem with series of 1910 in that it was used until 1917. Most OLD tobacco packs I have found are from the 1910 era were issued between 1917 and 1922 - new/old country store stock tends to be overly represented by that same period. Perhaps this too is related to the war years.......

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Posted By: Anonymous

The card Factory/no. and the pack Factory/no. do match-up.

From the original auction description: "This is an original pack of Piedmont cigarettes (Factory 25, Dist. VA.) dating from the era of T206 tobacco cards!"

And the T206 Armbruster also indicates Fact. 25 VA.

So, the possibility remains that this card was lying around at the factory for many years after production, and even during production (because it is a 350 series card), and inserted in the pack at the factory in (or post) 1917. Whether that is what actually happened, is another story. But there is no factory mismatch that would, in my opinion, have made this card/pack combo impossible.

Would a scammer have known enough to insert a card with the same Factory as the pack? (Of course, the odds are not bad that this would have been done correctly by chance.) And if so, wouldn't the scammer have known to insert a 460 series card, since that is the latest series in the T206 run? To me, this adds to the possibility that some leftover 350 series cards got inserted at a later date. Again, it's only a possibility.


And yes, the Topps "Christmas rack packs" mentioned above with 1950s cards were originally packaged and distributed after the years of issue (exactly when they first appeared in stores, I can't recall). A bunch of these unopened rack packs were sold on eBay a couple of years ago, but the cards inside were not mint. My understanding was that these Christmas rack packs were not packaged and sold by Topps, but by a third party that purchased lesser quality Topps overstock. So, I'm not sure we can point to those rack packs as being an example of the manufacturer distributing cards later, since Topps didn't do the distribution. But certainly 1952 cards appearing in 1953 packs would be consistent with what we (might) be seeing here with the T206 Armbruster.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

There are so many Hall of Fame player cards in the T206 set that taking a chance by bidding high at auction for a legitimate pack that would have a mint condition card possibly of Johnson, Young, Cobb, Mathewson, or other superstars is a reasonable gamble. Especially when depending on the fact that the pack was professionally authenticated by GAI.

However Dave never had a chance because the card/pack/stamp combo is bogus and a common player card was placed in the pack. The "winner" actually paid approximately ten times what that pack/card is worth.


Adding to Jon's earlier post -
GAI Labeled Sweet Caporal Cigarette Packs - Tax Stamp 1910 - Grading 15 packs that were in the 7-26-2004 Lot 1134 Mastro Auction – they sold for $13,015.00. Mastro Auctions had added the packs could be between 1910 and 1919 and that baseball cards inserts were possible.
The GAI label should have read: Sweet Caporal Cigarette Pack - 1916 with a T35 (Ask Dad) insert card.


The Sportscard Guaranty Corporation pays retribution for any costly mistakes they make. They are a professional grading/authentication service company.


Can you imagine someone paying big dollars for this GAI Authentic Product pictured below and the unhappy surprise when it is opened? It was sold on 9-28-2004.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Jerry - Thanks for posting that pack and that is absolutely amazing. For those that care, this pack has absolutely no chance of having an N43 unless AG packaged these cards into RSC boxes 23 years+ after the distribution ended.

I think Jerry said it best how this is a clear example of authentication by those who do not know or understand cigarette packs. In fact, GAI should not have even needed to look at a tax stamp to correctly date this box. I’ll give the board a little test to show what a simple mistake this is and how easily anyone who has even the tiniest bit of knowledge of cigarette packs could have dated this box correctly…

Pictured below are two additional RSC cigarette boxes that seem to be very similar to the one Jerry posted above, however each has one huge difference. One of the boxes below would have contained an N43. The other box would have been produced between 1890 and 1911. The one Jerry pictured above was made after 1911. Can anyone tell the difference? I bet this isn’t difficult for even the untrained eye.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Well I received a couple emails asking me which is which. The easy way to date these is to look at the bottom right corner. The one Jerry posted says "Ligget and Myers". Despite the GAI label that says is is from the 1887-1889 range, it is actually post 1911, when the ATC split and L&M was reborn. The first one I pictured is correct. Note how it only says Allen and Ginter without any successor. The second one I pictured is from the 1890's. It says American Tobacco Company. The ATC was formed after A&G and Goodwin (among smaller companies) joined in 1890.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the April Recent Pickups thread. Am thinking of going back to buy a pack of menthols to see if I can score the green background portrait.

[Pat R]

There aren't many threads on here about what packs could have t-cards in them so I wanted to add and correct some things in this thread for future research.

The only thing that I can't find information on that would definitely prove that the pack in question couldn't have originally contained a T206 card is the claim that a 12 count pack was illegal during the time period that T206's were distributed. In my opinion all the other reasons in this thread can be explained.

First there's the false claim that T206's were only inserted in 10 count packs.

[IMG][/IMG]

another incorrect assumption by some is that the date the act of August 5 1909 law went into effect it didn't actually take effect until July 1 1910.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

As far as the pack having Liggett & Myers on it when you read about the ATC dissolution the American Tobacco Company fought it for years in court and anything that made them seem like less of a monopoly at the time was to their benefit as far as I know putting or leaving Liggett & Myers on the pack wouldn't have been illegal. Another member posted something similar regarding this.

Originally Posted by Blitzu

I also have a theory on how the L&M could exist on the sides of the box prior to 1911...

If you read this page http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/pa...nabrights.html

You'll see that Duke wanted to keep the ownership of a union made cigarette being sold in the south so he may have put and kept the name L&M on the box instead of the ATC to avoid outrage.

Yet I still don't think the box listed above was from the T206 era since it bears the name "L&M successor". That still makes me believe that it was produced after the Trust was dissolved.

Thoughts?


UPDATE: I think I found my answer on the side of one of the T91 cards which were produced by Carolina Brights in 1907... if you look at the pack on the side it says Well-Whitehead Tobacco Co. then underneath, instead of L&M it says Wilson N.C. USA.

That fits inline with the theory above that they left he name Well-Whitehead on the boxes and never printed the ATC name... so it's safe to say that the Carolina Brights boxes with Wilson N.C. USA printed on the side of the boxes with a 1910-11 tax stamp could have contained a T206 card.

See the picture

[mjacobb]

Hello…I just recently joined this site so please forgive my lack of protocol. I have two Sweet Caporal packs that I have owned for many years. I had GAI grade when they first stated doing that and Terry Knouse look at them at one of the Shriners shows. My question is if their are any T206 packs with 15 count. This pack has the 1910 tax stamp and Factory 30 2nd district NY but with 15 not 10 cigarettes. Thanks in advance.

[joshleon]

Originally Posted by mjacobb

Hello…I just recently joined this site so please forgive my lack of protocol. I have two Sweet Caporal packs that I have owned for many years. I had GAI grade when they first stated doing that and Terry Knouse look at them at one of the Shriners shows. My question is if their are any T206 packs with 15 count. This pack has the 1910 tax stamp and Factory 30 2nd district NY but with 15 not 10 cigarettes. Thanks in advance.

Does NM-7 mean we can smoke these??

[jbsports33]

This looks like a pack from the teens or 1920s - Canada issue maybe looking at the front - would need to see all sides of pack

Jimmy

[mjacobb]

Thank you for the info…I do have another picture that shows the 1910 part of the tax stamp. According to Jon Canfield’s site this stamp was used between 1910 to 1916. What leads who to believe it to be a Canada issue having a US tax stamp? Thanks again.