Thoughts about the hobby

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Posted By: Leslie Westbrook

Hi all,

Although I'm young, and I've been a member of this board for less than a year, I have thoughts that I assume must be shared by others around my age (28) who are boardmembers. I love baseball. I loved playing it as a kid, collecting cards of the heroes/superstars, and learning about the hobby. As I grew into adulthood, I began learning about the history of the pastime, grew more and more interested, and furthered my collecting to include the athletes that brought all of this to us. Now, I buy what I can afford (small, small budget), but I enjoy the pre-war feel of the game--as far as the old-time cards' moods take me--the look of the cards, the way they were packaged, etc. I wonder, though, if my cards are more than just an expensive source of joy, or if they are also a valid investment. I see the game as it is today, and I can't easily predict a solid popular future. What are your thoughts on the popularity of the game, and thus, the cards that brought us here? Excuse me, please, Leon if this is too far off topic, but I felt this topic deserved discussion among these ranks. I realize my wording isn't precise, but I don't mind providing a somewhat ambiguous prompt as long as it leads to rational discussion.

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Posted By: Mike H

I have also wondered about the future (30-40 yrs from now) popularity of vintage baseball. It doesn't seem like kids are nearly as interested in the history of the game. It seems to be more about the events and the million other choices available to them. I understand attendance and merchandice sales are up, but is the fan base really into the sport of yesteryear?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leslie- first let me say I am double your age, but hopefully my opinion holds some weight.

It's very hard to predict a generation into the future, but we can try. It's true that today's children do not collect current baseball cards as much as baby boomers did, nor do they play as much baseball themselves (my nephew plays basketball and soccer constantly, but never plays baseball). However, collecting artifacts is a whole different discipline.

I think there will always be an interest in vintage baseball cards, the same way there will always be interest in antiques. There is something intrinsically beautiful in an old object, no matter what it is (okay, maybe not an old rusty can opener, but you get my drift).

I wouldn't worry about the hobby long term. There will be peaks and valleys but I think old and rare memorabilia will always be avidly collected.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think stocks, bonds, and mutual funds can be good investments. Invest in real estate, that is usually good, and even if you pay too much time will usually save you. I wish I'd bought 10 cheap acres out in the country, cleared it a bit, then planted hardwood saplings, cherry, walnut... 30 years or so from now, after I'm gone, a kid or grandkid could harvest that timber and really have something. Pay on a mortgage, for most Americans their home is their best investment. Running a close second, and best for some, is an education. There is an investment. Invest in your education, or a kid's.

Sounds like you're collecting cards for what I consider the 'right' reason. But please don't justify it by considering it your investment.

This below I copied from the 'vintage cards recession proof?' thread...


What I've set out below is my personal perception, and may well not be reality, so please don't take offense....


A CARD COLLECTOR's only concern about the price of a card is how it will affect his buying. He focuses on the expected costs of the cards he lacks. He rarely gets caught up in the current value of the cards he has.

A CARD SPECULATOR focuses on the value of a card based on what other folks are paying, in hopes that he could sell his card for that or more. He cares not about the value of cards he lacks. And it doesn't matter all that much who the player is, or which set the card is from, it is all about the potential sale value.

A CARD INVESTOR is delusional.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Barry, I hate people like you (Just kidding)

You said exactly what I wanted to say and you said better than I could have.... argh!

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Posted By: Scott Levy

I think that it's valid to discuss whether cards/memorabilia, etc is a reasonable investment.

IMO successful investing is all about managing risk and potential reward through the diversification of assets. Put simply, its about owning stuff that goes up or stays stable when other things go down. So let's look at potential assets:

1) Financial - This typically makes up the majority of any investors liquid assets. They include stocks, bonds, options, etc.

2) Real Estate - Which can be either hard assets, like building/land or shares in real estate (called REITs)

3) Commodities - Typically when people own this asset, its in the form of precious metals. Conventional wisdom says about 5% is a reasonable amount to own of this asset. By the way, these have done exceptionally well over the last few years.

4) Collectibles - Collectibles can include anything that has value that is not derived from a financial asset. Probably the most widely 'invested' in is artwork....but coins, stamps, cards, historical memorabilia all qualify. I'd again say that a properly diversified portfolio ought to own no more than 5% of there assets in this class.

Having said all that....My dad and I collect for reasons other than investment. We simply love the hobby. But we would never be foolish enough to think, let me skip out on the retirement savings this year and buy a PSA 7 Cobb. It's just not a wise thing to do.

Regards,
Scott

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Posted By: leon

I think this is a good topic. I have always said that I could give a rat's patoot about today's major leagues. I think they mostly are whiny overpaid babies. I rarely watch any major league games anymore. I am 46 and as a kid growing up in the late 60's and 70's I did like the game. I played about 365 days a year too. I loved/love to play ball. After that with the strikes and everything else I just got turned off never to go back. My family and I do go to some AA League games here in Frisco, TX and we love them. OK, all of that being said, I don't think it matters too terribly much what happens to major league baseball today with respect to our pre-war cards. Humans have some kind of hormone or something that makes us want to be collectors. It will continue. I still love reading about the old game and the way it used to be. Couple that with the little works of art our cards can be, the camaraderie associated with collecting, and the value aspect of them, and dare I say collecting for the forseeable future will be good.

As to Frank's points....I am a little more toned down and do think they can be a good investment as one part of a portfolio. As with any portfolio it should always be refined to balance resources and time lines with financial goals. My best "investments" have been because I am a collector first and foremost. I have bought cards I like and are scarce. That formula has worked well. I have only recently started buying to resell. Buying to resell (and make a profit) is not an easy proposition and I give kudos to anyone doing it....Good question and very on topic, imho.....warm regards

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Posted By: Seth B.

Leslie, I'm about your age and have thought about this, too. I have two points:
1. I'm also an enormous baseball fan and a SABR member. I will say this: despite the rise of popularity of the NFL and NBA, both probably now outpacing MLB, you don't see ginormous prices for early basketball and football memorabilia. All the major auction houses (Mastro, REA, Goodwin) now sell early stuff from other sports, but by a large margin the bulk of their material is baseball. I think this is that, though other sports may eclipse the MLB in general popularity, the demographic of MLB fans tend to have more disposable income, and this ready money will continue to float the collectibles market long after baseball's general popularity wanes. Basically, more urban kids want to grow up to be point gaurds, but they aren't the ones collecting high cost items in the first place.
2. I honestly think that in baseball's history there are enough times when the sport involves itself with the general current of American history that it vintage baseball will continue to hold the value that Americana does. You can see this in Jackie Robinson and the Civil Rights movement most clearly, but you can also see it in what we on this board collect and the early tobacco industry (the lifeblood of the American South), or the 19th century innovators and the Reconstructionist era (several famous early people associated with the game were Civil War vets). I think that it's these points of contact with the greater history of the country that make early baseball memorabilia vital and, I think, durably valuable.

-Seth

EDITED TO ADD:

Also, in response to Frank, I am all about the purity of collecting, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on principle. The only problem is that in order to get some of the neater (=more expensive) cards, you have to compete with people who don't feel that way, and that means you have to pay investor prices whether you're a collector or an investor. So, while I certainly buy to keep, and I buy what I like, when I spend a lot on a card, and that inflated price is due to other people speculating on the value, then I have to consider it a sound investment as well. Does that make sense? I like what you're saying in a vacuum, but prices are set by everyone, collectors and investors, and it's hard to rationalize paying big money for a card merely for the folly of collecting. Now, cheap items, those are a different story...

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Posted By: ErikV

Leslie,

I too am an avid baseball fan. Granted, over the years the game has changed (ie designated hitter, pitch count, more emphasis on specialty position players/middle relief, closer, etc), but the game is still played the same way. Both teams get 9 innings, 3 outs per inning and you still have to outscore your opponent to win. Yes, the game has become commercialized with the All-Star Game and Home Run Derby, but every spring we have spring training and every fall we still have a World Series with the hope of our team going all the way!

As far as collecting goes, don't get too caught up in the investment aspect. Enjoy your collection for what it is, a means of connecting to an era and players from a bygone era as well as an ongoing work in progress.

One quick story. After reading your post last night, I received a phone call from a former co-worker whom I had not heard from in quite some time. He knows I collect cards and his son has become interested in collecting. Evidentially, his son has been reading up on Christy Mathewson because that is now his favorite player. I suggested that I meet him and his son and show them a few of my older cards, including a couple of my Matty cards. He got really excited and is looking forward to seeing my collection.

Again, enjoy the game, enjoy your collection and most of all have fun with both!

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Posted By: Mike H

Seth, Your comment about the baseball demographic is spot on. I believe there is something about baseball that does bring in a more sophisticated crowd overall.

And yes, there will alwaaaays be collectors.

I don't collect for financial gain long term, but it is comforting to think I can enjoy something for years and years and get my funds back in the end. The same certainly can't be said for golfing, hanging out at a bar, etc.

This has been a good post.

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Posted By: Alan

Good topic !!!

Free Agency....suddenly the game started to be played for the money and no longer for the love of the game.

Well for the most part that is what has happened in today's hobby, the money has replaced the pure joy of collecting. Few transactions are made because we replace things of our past, the majority of transactions involve the hope of a monetary gain either the buyer or seller can foresee. We seek things because they have value, we avoid things because they are worthless. It's really just a business. The hobby will never return to the past, just as players will never play for the pure love of the game in professional sports again. Sure the games will still be played, but forever missing will be the love and passion of just playing for the fun of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkcezH3M44A

Alan