What do you do if you are shilled but the price is still fair?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Say you win a card for $500 that is worth at least that amount but the bidding history looks fishy and you suspect you were shilled to the tune of about $200. What would you do?

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Posted By: peter chao

If you have a thick skin, I would negotiate with the seller.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Matt

if it's just fishy, then report it to ebay and keep it in mind for future items from the seller. If it's conclusive (which is almost impossible to prove) then leave negative feedback for the seller so others know. Unless you have 100% proof, which I can't imagine how you would get, I don't think you have any legal recourse.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I would buy the card.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

If it was a fair price you count your blessings and thank the shiller and seller for not knowing what the item was really worth!!!

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Posted By: T206Collector

If you win an auction that was shilled, then you were prepared to pay that price for the card and have very little worth complaining about in my opinion.

The fact that you could have gotten a better value on the card if you were not shilled is frustrating, but how can you really be upset if you got the card you wanted at a price you were prepared to pay?

I snipe auctions to avoid the kind of shilling that eats away at a high proxy/ceiling bid. If you bid early in an auction with a high proxy/ceiling bid, then you are just inviting shilling and have absolutely nothing to complain about.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i agree with Barry, Al & Paul

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"If you win an auction that was shilled, then you were prepared to pay that price for the card and have very little worth complaining about in my opinion.

The fact that you could have gotten a better value on the card if you were not shilled is frustrating, but how can you really be upset if you got the card you wanted at a price you were prepared to pay?"

Well, for starters, you'd have been a victim of a crime.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- what's your evidence? Seems to me suspicion of shilling is hearsay.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I'm just responding to Paul's assumption that the shilling has already occurred.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

are you guys talking about 50/50, 75%, or 100%

edited to remove smiley...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- my feeling is half the shilling that people suspect hasn't actually occurred. Unfortunately, in this hobby we have learned to expect the worse.

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Posted By: Matt

barry - I'm sure you're correct - but the other half of the time it does happen, and we shouldn't just ignore it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree, but can the other half be proven? Looking at a series of ebay bids that look odd is reasonable suspicion, but far from proof.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I'm sure the FBI will have an answer for us soon enough.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, then that's proof enough for me!

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

TWIS*





*That's Why I Snipe


If you snipe, you won't be shilled


Steve

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

If you snipe, you won't be shilled

I guess it depends on your definition of "shilled."

Say that I'm selling a card on eBay that I think should bring at least $500, and with 2 hours to go it's sitting at $100. So I ask my friend to place a bid of $490. That takes the high bid to $105 and is the last bid until Steve comes in with a snipe of $500 with 5 seconds remaining and wins the card for $495.

By my definition, Steve got shilled.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Agreed.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Ditto!!

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Posted By: MikeU

"I would buy the card." - Barry S.

In your next auction, please note in your code of conduct that you support schilling:>)

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

I can't support shilling or Schilling.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I always snipe. The situation I am asking about is one where the seller uses a shill ID to create an artificial reserve. Remember BRSZ (Broadway Rick's Strike Zone)? That's what he got caught doing.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Let me be clear about a couple of things.

a. I agree that shilling is a no no, criminal or otherwise.

b. I agree that the example of shilling above is shilling.



What I find frustrating about the people who complain about shilling is they typically refuse to acknowledge any responsibility for (a) placing an early bid (what I call "shill inviting") or (b) placing a high and ultimately winning bid.

In economic theory, shilling would reduce the inefficiencies of the market of an auction, whereby you are selling something to someone for an increment over what the second highest bidder was willing to pay, but not the limit of what the first highest bidder was willing to pay. In a perfect market, items would sell for what the highest bidder was willing to pay. That would make the seller and buyer both as happy as possible with a transaction.

It may be illegal, and it may not be right or fair, but from a purely economic standpoint, it makes both parties happy -- you know, when the buyer doesn't know he could've had the item for cheaper.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"What I find frustrating about the people who complain about shilling is they typically refuse to acknowledge any responsibility for (a) placing an early bid (what I call "shill inviting")"...

this is ridiculous...it's like saying a girl who wears mini-skirts is inviting rapists...

give me a break...

i DO NOT snipe, i place bids whenever i feel like it, early, late, often, etc...that's my perogative and perfectly legal and normal.


people who shill are to blame, not me!

p.s. i never complain about being shilled, even though i know i have been shilled a few times in the past...

i make my bed...then sleep in it...i'm a man, i don't complain.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike, you read my mind -- including your example.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

jeff- glad you agree...i even edited my post to add to my point.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mike- I support Schilling? You mean Curt? I have no problem with him.

No, I do not support shilling, nor allow it in my own auction. But I know it goes on and unfortunately I don't know how to recognize it. So if I have to bid I do so and hope for the best. In a perfect world everyone would be honest.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Shilling will always exist and there are ways to avoid being a victim.

Since Jeff seems inclined to apply his JD to this problem, victims of crimes are always victims of crimes, but there are things you can do to make yourself less of a target -- don't walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night in a bad neighborhood with your wallet open and $100 bills hanging out.

I think you're a mark if you place early ceiling bids on auctions.

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Posted By: DaveL

Place the maximum amount that you feel the item is worth. Even if shilling is occuring, you can't be shilled over that amount.

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Posted By: T206Collector

It's like you read my mind.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, I don't need my JD on this one. Common Sense 101: if the amount you spend at auction is below the market value of the item but still inflated by the auction house through undisclosed shill bidding, you are a victim of a fraud. It is not the intent of the victim that controls here but rather the intent of the auctioneer who uses the shill.

It is sad that we are all so sure that we're being shilled so often that we just pay the overage as a sort of tax with the meekest of protest.

I wonder if Doug Allen or Rob Lifson would agree with what has been written here about shill bidding, i.e., just place your bid to the most you want to pay and if you get shilled you get shilled.

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Posted By: Marty

I put this in another thread, Was this auction shilled?
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=120172274063

Or was it just someone that did not want to be shilled?

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Posted By: T206Collector

You would be the victim of fraud. Never tried to say otherwise.

Also, don't think it's okay.

Just saying there are ways of protecting oneself a bit.

And I think it is interesting from an economic theory standpoint -- it is more like a fixed price sale when you are the victim of illegal and fraudulent shill behavior. You paid a price you were prepared to pay; the seller got what he was asking. You just weren't in on the background of the sale.

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Posted By: Marty

Rob, in you example, if the snipe was set at $490, you would still have the item and $20 in fees. I know that this is not the issue though. This would still habe been shilled. If you wanted to do this, it would be more acceptible to use a reserve. It is a different question, but why isn't this feature used more?

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

If you snipe, you won't be shilled

I guess it depends on your definition of "shilled."

Say that I'm selling a card on eBay that I think should bring at least $500, and with 2 hours to go it's sitting at $100. So I ask my friend to place a bid of $490. That takes the high bid to $105 and is the last bid until Steve comes in with a snipe of $500 with 5 seconds remaining and wins the card for $495.

By my definition, Steve got shilled.





Rob,

Point taken. I guess by sniping, you won't have your bid "run up" by someone. If you put a $500 snipe in, as per your example, and win the item for $495, you are getting the item at a price you're willing to pay (not unlike the original example in the thread's first post). You also have the "advantage" of knowing who the previous bidders are (as long as the high bid is below $200). Boy, the more I think about this, the more my head hurts!

I don't know, and maybe it's just naivete on my part, but I just feel better sniping, and knowing my bid won't atract any "run-upers" or anyone else.


Steve

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Marty: From what I've seen, the reason auctioneers on ebay don't use reserves are mainly that it costs money to place a reserve and some people (myself included) don't like to bid in reserve auctions because so many sellers use them to ferret out a market price and then try to sell the item off-line via email contacts.

Again, the issue here isn't overpayment for the item; my hypothetical assumes the item sold for a fair price. Whether the price is "right" is a red herring. The real issue is whether a seller should be rewarded (paid) for illegal, unlawful, against the rules of Ebay conduct.

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Posted By: davidcycle

A rule of thumb is if a seller is known to cheat in one area (ala shilling), he's willing to cheat in other areas. Regular shilling demonstrates that being dishonest for the sake of money is probably a character trait of the seller, a trait that probably isn't isolated just to shilling.

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Posted By: Matt

Wow - I can't believe it took this long for someone else to post that!

I don't understand how those here who are suggesting the shilling is fine since the buyer got what they wanted at a price they were willing to spend. If a seller cheats in one area they have crossed moral lines and there's no reason to assume they wouldn't cheat in other areas.

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Posted By: Marty

Okay, lets say that $500 is a fair price. Lets also say that you wanted to save a couple of bucks and put in a $490 snipe and the seller had a $495 shill in. Now lets assume that you were the only bidder even close. You would not get the card and the seller will have eBay fees on the $495. If the reserve was $500, you would have had the opportunity to decide if you wanted to spring for the extra $10 to buy the card, if you knew what the reserve was. From what you are saying, it $500 is a fair price for the card and it has a reserve of $500, you would not put a bid in. What if the description stated that the reserve was $500? How about if the starting price was $500, would you put a bid in? The listing with a reserve is a higher fee to list, but it is lower than final fees on a $495 sale to a shill.

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Posted By: davidcycle

One answer is shilling is against the law. "Tell it to the judge," as the saying goes.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

All I can say in response is that the amount isn't the issue; the cheating is the issue. I may walk away from the auction if I feel it has been shilled even if the price is below my snipe bid simply on the principle.