Population of E93s compared to T and E cards

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I am about half way into my E93 set, and I thought of something.

How rare/tough are the E93 series compared to T cards, and other E cards? I've read through Peter's caramel card site, and he lists E93s as slighter tougher than E90-1s, but still not that hard.

Also, what is the population for each of the cards? I know some cards are tougher than others in the set, but I was wondering, how many copies of each card exist?
Just a general question about a pretty nice looking set. I'm sure JimB and JK will have some things to say here.


Thanks!
Josh

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: JK

Hey Josh,

There are a few cards that I believe to be generally tougher than others to find. I think its generally agreed that Coveleskie and Pastorious are the toughest non-HOFers in the set and that Chance is the toughest HOFer in the set. Chance was the last card I obtained before completing the set, but they all took awhile before I was able to find decent upgrades. One other that I think is pretty difficult to find, particularly in good condition, is Phillippe. Im still looking for one that is nicer than my 30.

Im not sure how many of each card exist, my guess is at least in the 100s. Though not "rare" when compared to some other e cards, they are still found in far less numbers than the more common T cards (such as t206 and t205) of the era. Its a great looking set regardless of how rare or not rare it is (personally, I would consider any card that only has a few hundred or less copies to be "rare" - which, of course is not intended to take anything away from even more rare sets such as e98s, e94s, etc.).

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Posted By: JK

I dont know the psa pop reports, but sgc generally has between 17 and 35 graded of each card. Of those figures, I can personally state that many are crossovers from psa and Im guessing that some are probably cards that have been cracked and resubmited as well. Notables: Phillippe has a pop of 17, Cobb 35, Brown (a very popular card) 20, Pastorious 21, Coveleskie 18, Wagner 34, Chance 21, Jones 19, Young 32, Matty 23.

Total number of e93s graded - 755; By comparison, total e98s graded - 554; e95s - 974; e94s - 466.

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Posted By: JimB

I would mostly echo what Josh has said. Chance is definately the toughest HOF. Pastorious is the toughest common player and is probably the toughest individual card in the set. It is tough to explain why this is the case since we know the whole set was produced on one sheet and so presumably there were an equal # of each produced. Of course Cobb may have been help onto more often than Pastorious, but in general I would not say Cobb is easier than any others. The fact that there are more Cobbs and Wagners graded is a reflection of their value, not the quantities available in my opinion. And I agree with Josh that there has been a lot crossing over back and forth between PSA and SGC so the pop #s are definately distorted. The E93s are mostly all about the same in difficulty.

I think there are less examples of each E93 than E95s or E90-1s, but certainly more than E94, E103, E105 or some of the other tough caramel issues. E98s are probably a little tougher than E93s, but not much imho. E98s are definately tougher in decent shape, though high-grade E93s are pretty darn tough. Almost all of the high-grade E93s came from three finds, including the set Mastro auctioned a couple of years ago for $330k and a recent find of an original collection.

If I were to estimate the # of each card in the set, I would guess it is someshere in the 200-300 range. In comparison, I would estimate the total for any given E94 (regardless of color) at 50-100. I would be curious to hear other's opinions.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

To compare these numbers with populations of T cards, I believe Scot Reader estimated (through a quite elaborate extrapolation) that there are roughly 2000-3000 examples of the average T206 card. Some series are tougher than others, but that is a rough estimation. So that would make your average E93 ten to thirty times tougher than your average T206. Of course there are less E93 collectors than T206, the prices coorolate not only with supply, but also demand.
JimB
P.S. In general, high-grade caramel cards (EX or better) are much tougher than their T card brothers.

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Posted By: Richard

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1166232072/last-1166303941/Caramel+card+scarcity

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Posted By: quan

rman, can you also tell me how to spot a fake cracker jack? or crack a slab? i have the most trouble with beckett and pro! you're so helpful thanks

on a related note is there a sticky feature on n54? it'd be a good idea if we can combine all the frequently ask questions into a stickied thread, or a "FAQ". i've tried using the search feature and sometime you have to drag through 18 pages to find what you're looking for. i enjoy thorough reading so i don't mind but some noobs may get lost.

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Posted By: Wesley

Rman's hobby knowledge is second to none.


There is almost no comparison between populations for caramel cards and tobacco cards. I always like looking at the Cobb cards from each set, because collectors tend to submit Cobb for grading before they submit other players.

E93 Cobb
PSA population = 40
SGC population = 35

T206 red portrait Cobb
PSA population = 833
SGC population = (I can't figure out the SGC pop report.)

T205 Cobb
PSA population = 305
SGC population = 119

On the other hand, while the E93 set is much scarcer than some tobacco issues, is more plentiful than many other E cards. If you look at the very rare E cards, many of the cards show very few graded. Crofts Cocoa and Mello-mints cards come to mind as very rare cards in comparison to any other E cards or T cards.

E105 Cobb
PSA population = 1
SGC population = 0

E92 Crofts Cocoa Cobb
PSA population = 1
SGC population = 3

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Posted By: JimB

Wes,
Thanks for those numbers. Very illuminating.
JimB

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Posted By: JK

I agree Wes that e93s are much more plentiful than some of the other caramel issues you mentioned. However, I would submit that its not quite as great as 65 to 1 (based solely on graded cobbs) or thereabouts. Because they are more plentiful, its my belief that the amount of crossing between grading companies and the amount of cards cracked out and resubmitted is disproportionately higher (by the same token, the amount of crossing of t206s is even more frequent).

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Posted By: Richard

SGC's T206 pop reports do not break out by pose, but an approximate number, if you use the same ratio as what is found on the psa pop report:

PSA population - red port = 930
PSA population - total cobbs = 2257
% that are red port = 41.2%

SGC population - total cobbs = 800
assuming roughly 41.2% are red port = 330

so approx psa and sgc red port cobbs = 930 + 330 = 1260

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Posted By: Richard

Just looking at Cobb populations, e93, e95 and e90-1 are the most common caramel sets which blow away the most common tobacco sets as far as scarcity.

However, when considering the more difficult t and e sets, the pops of t206 and t205 are in a class all by themselves (dare I say dime a dozen?).

What the numbers below do not show are some combining of poses, colors, etc, but you get the general idea.



* e92 cocoa and candy are combined
* e94 all 6 colors are combined
* e98 all 4 colors are combined
* e106 both poses are combined
* t206 are only red port numbers. combine all poses and the number is through the roof
* t213 all poses and all series are combined
* t216 all poses and both kottons and mino are all combined

edited to make the numbers more readable.

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Posted By: JimB

I crossed my E94 Cobb from PSA to SGC to go with the rest of my set. I also crossed my E93 Cobb from SGC to PSA to go with the rest of that set. So we can scratch one off each of those numbers. FYI, both crossed at the same levels.
JimB