Revisiting the Irv Young/Cy Young E97

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I was just reading Donald Honig's American League history book and noticed a pic of Irv Young and the caption called him "Cy" Young and explained that he was called "CY" and "Cy the Second" throughout his career.

I think it's possible that the E97 issue was intended to be Irv and that they just got the checklist on the back wrong. For that reason I don't think this card should bring a premium above a "common" card.

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Posted By: leon

I doubt most would disagree with you....except the market....if an E97 Young goes up for sale there will be no shortage of folks wanting to buy it....for several thousand dollars...(in vg'ish condition).....

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Posted By: Wesley

Same could be said about Cy Young on a number of caramel cards. Cy Young in the E98 and E97 is Irv Young. And I think the orange E92 and E105 Cy Young cards also depict Irv Young, although the side portrait really looks like neither. Like Leon says though, so long as the card says Cy, collectors will be paying Cy dollars.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Considering Irv young had a career mark of 64-93, it's hard to see why he was compared to Cy. 1911 was his last year, and he played for the White Sox, so his team would be wrong.

As Leon said, even if you could convince someone that the card was meant to picture Irv Young, it would always sell for Cy Young prices. Remember the old adage: Buy the label, not the silly card!

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Posted By: JimB

Dan,
I'll give you triple the common card price for all of your E97 Youngs, ok?
JimB

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Posted By: Bob

The E94 Young is the real Cy Young, unlike the E97 and E98 cards. That should make it even pricier....

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Posted By: quan

the e93 shows him with a bat...PREMIUM!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Shouldn't a well known fact like for instance Irv was also nicknamed "Cy" and the picture clearly shows Irv and not Denton keep this card from bringing a premium? I believe the card makers used Irv's nickname and the only mistake was on the checklist on the back.

The E97 has the correct team for Irv and not Denton listed on the front as well. I could see a small premium because it's an error card, but $5,000 for an SGC 60???

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Posted By: Dave S

Likewise the "standing" variation of Cy's W555 is in reality Irv..

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Posted By: robert a

Dan,

Interesting theory. The e94 version includes the real picture of cy young.
I guess this adds to your theory. But I still think it would be very strange for them to choose irv young for these small sets.

Rob

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Posted By: leon

It had to do with anyone named "Cy"? as in Cy Seymour......aka Home Run Baker

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Posted By: robert a

Isn't that Home Run Seymour?

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

If the picture were Cy and the caption Irv, would it sell as a common or HOF premium?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Probably as a common, but you would have to see over time how collectors perceived it.

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Posted By: Brad

I'm not going to CRY about it, I'm just glad I have one!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry brings up a good point about perception....how do you collectors percieve the Young cards that depict Irv?

When filling out your E97 or E98's do you consider the Young cards to be Hall of Famer Cy Young or do you take them to be Irv?

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Posted By: leon

As far as I know everyone collects these as Cy Young....I do....I got this from Tik the year before they went through the roof price wise....He had a Keeler and this one both for 1k each....I should have bought both....

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Posted By: robert a

I don't think Irv Young or Cy Young played for Boston Natl. during 1909-10.
What's the deal with that? Irv was there in 1908.

To answer your question, I consider the cards to be Cy. Maybe I shouldn't.

I think we collectors go by the name on the card rather than the picture. Leon's Baker e104 is another good example of that along with the tinker/weaver mess ups.

And maybe this explains why the young is so tough for e97. You would think Young would be the card from the set that survived the most because collectors wanted to keep the legendary Cy Young, but since Irv is portrayed they didn't really care as much.

Rob

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

In my view, the card is defined by the picture; so to take Leon's card pictured above, it's Irv Young to me. Same way with the T3 Frank Baker. Just because the name at the bottom says "Baker" doesn't remove the fact that the card actually pictures Jack Barry, making it (to me anyway) a Jack Barry card.


Steve


Edited to correct Barry's first name.

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Posted By: David Smith

OK, that is what you would "buy" the card as but the real question is what you would "sell" the card as??

For those who claim the person pictured is different than the name on the card, this might work to your advantage if explaining to a seller you wont pay as much as what they are asking because Irv is pictured on a Cy Young card. Now, once you have made your arguement and bought the card for less, when it comes time to sell the card, are you also going to sell it for less because Irv is pictured??

Just wondering,

David

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would be interested to know how these Irv/Cy Young cards are listed in the old ACC catalogs. Did Burdick consider the cards to be Hall of Famer Cy Young or did he classify them as Irv "Cy" Young?

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Posted By: Bruce Perry

as a collector once upon a time of these great cards, I personally did not want to buy the cy young cards that picture irv young.....the e90-1, e92, e93 (I have one of these in my ebay store), e94 (true classic)to name a few are good alternative choices....unless of course you are working on the e97, e98 sets

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Posted By: leon

Burdick didn't list players. He only listed sets. As for buying or selling an Irv/Cy or Seymour/Home Run Baker there really is no need to say anthing. If you were selling one on ebay you would only need to put the card up and the market will take care of itself. Both will be bought and sold as HOF'ers....

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I agree with the person in this thread who earlier stated that the picture takes precedence over the name on the card. Although arguably since Irv was known as "Cy" you could say that it was never intended to be a depiction of Denton True "Cy" Young anyway. Obviously this is not what the majority of collectors think since the cards sell for a premium.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

what about this one...

There were two guys in the Eastern League named Kelly/Kelley. Joe Kelley played for Toronto, and Jack Kelly was with Newark (this same picture is on his C46 card #15). The picture on this card is Jack Kelly, it is spelled Kelly as opposed to Kelley, but it appears they were attempting to make a card of Joe Kelley (for Toronto)... so which one is it? A Jack Kelly card, or a Joe Kelley (HOF) card?
-Rhett

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

IMO Rhett that card is a Jack Kelly card. They got his name and picture right, but they just got the wrong team.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Actually, to throw another wrench into the story there was another guy named Harley Young that was a pitcher for the Boston NL team in 1908 that was affectionately known as "Cy The Third". This could be an elusive Harley Young card...
-Rhett

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Posted By: Dylan

It seems to me all things equal, collectors will always choose the bigger name to define the card over the more obscure one.

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Posted By: Mark

I can't figure out why the kids are paying hundreds for this card of a .290 lifetime hitter with no power.