TSN 100 Greatest...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, your argument makes zero sense. Basically, you claim that rich kids get beaten by their parents too -- though you make no claim that Bonds grew up in a dysfunctional home. So what is your point other than to create a straw man solely for the purpose of knocking it down? Point to something in Bonds's childhood that could act as a trigger for his behavior today and then you'd be talking.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Jay, give it up (Ralph to Norton: "You are a mental case.").

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Posted By: Steve f

I despise Bonds too. But John, that comment was low.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

It just gets so boring. Besides, a little Honeymooners' humor might be just what this post needs.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Boy, I must know a lot less about baseball than I thought.

I take Willie Mays ahead of Ty Cobb ten times out of ten. I rank Babe Ruth as the #1 player of all-time, and Willie Mays right behind him at #2. Just like the Sporting News.

And I think Barry Bonds is one of the top 4-5 position players of all time.

-Al

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

This argument shows precisely why we should judge Cobb, Bonds and everyone else as baseball players, not as men. I don't think we have enough facts to psychoanalyze Cobb, or to judge whether there are demons in Bonds' past.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I agree with you. If it weren't for Ruth's unique impact on the history of the game, I might put Mays first -- Ruth isn't even close to Mays in fielding, throwing or baserunning.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I think Mays was the best all round: hit, hit for power, field, throw, run = the ultimate 5 tool player.

Was Joe Jackson 5 tool?

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Posted By: Mark L

Mays vs. Ruth? Ruth was a far better pitcher. Maybe one of the best ever.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Let's not get carried away, Ruth pitched for perhaps 4 complete seasons. Granted, he might well have been an all time great had he remained a pitcher, but to say he WAS one of the greatest pitchers ever seems overstated.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Peter, you hit it right on the head, Jeff knows no more about Bonds' childhood than anyone really knows about Cobb's mental health. We can make assumptions about both, but that's it. To assume that Bonds had a perfect childhood because he came from a rich family is just plain silly. We obviously have no idea why Bonds acts the way he does, but it would seem that he had some sort of "trigger" events to cause it, just like Jeff claims there are "trigger" events that caused Cobb to be the way he is.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, there is no evidence that Bonds had any of the sort of life that Cobb did in terms of difficulties growing up. You even argued that the media has forever been all over Bonds; I suppose they missed the part where his mother shot his father to death. Cobb's difficulties, on the other hand, are well-documented. You can't have it both ways by claiming that Bonds has been under a microscope by the media but they happened to miss all the strife he had growing up. And you also can't claim that because there is no evidence that Bonds had any great trauma growing up that suggests that such a trauma could have existed. These are fairly basic logic concepts, no?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

It’s a baby boomer generated list that overrates the big names from the 1940's through free agency (the guys that the voters saw play during their formative years). It also ignores the 19th century stars and gives some (but not nearly enough) credit to the Negro League greats. These two groups are admittedly the hardest to rate but I think even a conservative approach would give them more credit. That said I'm surprised Mickey Mantle scored so poorly. http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml) He is usually at the top of such lists and (at least in this case) I think they may have underrated him! He was certainly, better than Joe DiMaggio (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dimagjo01.shtml) unless you are willing to give a lot of speculative credit for what DiMaggio might have done during the war.

Apart from those general errors, the biggest mistake is Wagner. I would put him easily in the top 5 all time (probably at 2 or 3) . If they had an MVP award akin to ours during his career he would have won more than Bonds (the same with gold gloves) At least until very recently the Shortstop were inferior hitters. Wagner however was among the best hitters in all of baseball for most of his long career. If you look at the leaders Wagner was among the leaders at in virtually every offensive category during his career. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wagneho01.shtml) In short he was most complete position player in the games’ history, he played a crucial position, he was a winner, and he was a great teammate. He tied Babe Ruth for second just behind Ty Cobb (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof.shtml) in the inaugural Hall of Fame voting (which was a bit screwed up) in 1936.

With the Negro Leaguers, the consensus among the people who have really given the issue the most thought is that Oscar Charleston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Charleston) was the greatest all around player and should rank ahead of the more famous Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Buck Leonard and Satchell Paige. Predictably those guys are from the next generation.

Significantly overrated: Koufax, Joe Jackson, Clemente, Lou Brock, Sisler, Bill Terry, Nolan Ryan and Joe DiMaggio.

Underrated (as of 1998): Collins, Lajoie, Lefty Grove (should be in or around the top 10) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/grovele01.shtml) Joe Morgan and Tris Speaker.

Should be on the list:
1. More Negro Leaguers (egs. Joe Rogan, Joe Williams, Pop Lloyd)
2. I believe the earliest on the list are Young, Wagner and Lajoie all of whom played in the 1890’s. Of those only Young 9 http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngcy01.shtml) played the better part of his career before 1900.
Of the earlier players missing at least some of the following belong: Delahanty, Anson, Kid Nichols, Brouthers, Billy Hamilton, Buck Ewing, Connor and probably at least one more Pitcher like Clarkson, Rusie or Radborne)
4.Three Finger Brown;
5.Floyd "Arky" Vaughan (there aren't enough shortstops on this list at all and he's among the top few all-time)

As to what to do as of now with Bonds, Clemens and anything else from the past several years:

With Bonds and anyone else suspected of using PEDs to increase their power and/or durability I think they should be credited rather conservatively since we really don't know how rampant PEDs were, how much certain individuals benefited over and above the other players they had to compete with. All things considered I think Barry easily has to go in the top 4 or 5 but I can't see going much further until we have a better perspective.

I also would bump up Maddox, Clemens and Rickey Henderson. I'm holding off on putting Clemens (at the moment the one I rank highest) ahead of Johnson, Grove and Young until the dust settles.

Based on the numbers alone the following players probably merit strong consideration (depending, of course, on whether you want to preemptively punish some of them for using PEG etc.): AROD, Sosa, Jeter, The Big Unit, Pedro, Palmeiro, IROD, Piazza, Frank Thomas, Glavine, Manny Ramirez etc.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I have always put Mickey and Joe D in my top seven. I think you have to give credit to Joe for the three missing seasons due to WW2. For list placing purposes. Joe's lifetime BA was .325. Mickey's .298. In 18 years Mickey hit 536 HRs for 29.7 per. In 13 years Joe hit 361 for 27.7 per. Joe didn't have the short porch advantage Mickey had while hitting lefthanded. Joe was in 10 WS and was 9-1. Mickey was in 12 and was 7-5. Joe was, for all of Mickey's speed, a better fielder. He was more of a team leader than Mickey (this, I know, is very subjective and based on my readings). I would be curious as to how Yankee fans would rate the top 5 Yankees of all time. Bill James, for example, rates Lou Gehrig rather low. I've see Lou as high as #2 on baseball's all-time list.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I love Mickey but I'm not sure I'd put him in a top 20.

Joe DiMaggio is Joe DiMaggio, and I'd probably put him in a top 20.

I'm just trying to think of who would be in my top 20, and here's what I come up with, in no particular order (except #1 and 2)

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Aaron
Bonds
Wagner
Matty
Johnson
Williams
Young
Alexander
Hornsby
Gibson
DiMaggio
Gehrig
Foxx
Grove
Musial
Collins
Anson

Another few years at this level, and I'd replace Collins or Anson with Rodriguez.

I guess. Although I could change my mind tomorrow. Frank Robinson, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Pete Rose, Jackie, Satchel, jeez, there are so many.

-Al

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Posted By: Denny

Someone would honestly pick Yogi Berra over Jackie Robinson? Jackie would of stole home and patted Yogi on the back, while Yogi was lookin' down saying, "the only problem we'll have is if the other team scores more runs then us!?" Yogi was good, but Jackie was Great! imho....

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Jeffrey Lichtman

Unfortunately, it's difficult to ignore Roger Clemens in a list that includes Bob Gibson.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Was "good"? The best or second best catcher of all time (I can see the case for Bench) was only "good" but not great? Sheesh.

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Posted By: Mark

Jeff: It's incredible how biased you are in making a case that Cobb wasn't that bad of a guy or that his "bad personality traits" (as you put it) are excusable due to his upbringing.

Cobb once charged the stands to beat senseless a crippled heckler. He once beat a black groundskeeper and then choked the groundskeeper's wife (his teammates had to pull him off of her). Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator and then stabbed a black night watchman who intervened. He reportedly carried a gun with him during much of his career to protect him from..his own teammates.

It's disingenuous of you to have read up on Cobb and still characterize these vicious, criminal acts as mere "bad personality traits." Or to excuse them due to his childhood experiences. Or to say his personality was better than Bonds'.

Why can't you just admit that Cobb committed many vicious/criminal acts and was despised by his own teammates, but luckily the hall of fame evaluated him on his baseball skills instead of his personal life? Until you can admit this, your posts lack credibility.

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Posted By: Mark

Al,
Anson was one heck of a player and so was Collins. Rather than bump either one I'd make it a top 21 or top 22 list.

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Posted By: Denny

Peter,

I wasn't attacking Yogi at all, Mearly sayin' that Jackie was Great! My Apologies... I can't get enuff of Yogi, He was the best I ever saw and I'm a Met fan...
But Jackie was one of the top 5 "All Around" Best Players Ever...imho! He changed the game when he was on the field, not many did that! Isn't that the reason most prefer Ty Cobb? He Bunted just to get on base, just to reak havoc... He (also) alone changed the game...

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I think Cobb was merely the victim of a society that condoned racism, and that none of the aforementioned acts reflected on him personally.

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Posted By: peter chao

Denny, Peter S.,

I'd have to go with Yogi over Johnny Bench as the best catcher of all time. 3 MVPs for Yogi and only 2 for Johnny. It's not just that, Yogi had stiffer competition for the MVP also. Plus the fact that Yogi was one of the best bad ball hitters ever.

People tend to underrate Yogi because he's known as a comedian but his baseball IQ was as high as anybody's.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeffrey Lichtman

Mark, I think that Cobb's actions (all accurately described by you) were a product of a severe mental illness. Bonds, on the other hand, has committed his criminal and otherwise boorish actions solely due to his own selfishness and ego.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't know.

We all have hangups. I would imagine that if my father were a former pro ballplayer - and a very good one at that, and my godfather were one of the greatest to ever set foot on a baseball field, and I was surrounded by great players during my childhood...

and I had superior natural abilities that were clear even as a child,

and as a college student it was a given that I was going to be a great Major League Baseball player,

and I had the obsessive-compulsive tendencies that are pretty normal in pro athletes,

and I lived at a time when 24-hour news and sports channels followed my every move,

and I didn't have the greatest people skills in the world,

and I saw the country fawn over Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa even as I knew they were cheating,

then perhaps I would be a steroid-bloated jerk as well. But hopefully I wouldn't beat any one-armed hecklers.

-Al

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Posted By: Mark

Al, if you do beat up any one-armed hecklers, be sure to hire Jeff. You're the victim.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Doesn't a one-armed man have the same rights to be beaten up as a two-armed man...and wouldn't he want those rights stood up for (assuming you have legs of course)?

So in honor of all the one-armed men:


"BLACK KNIGHT
| Who dares to challenge the Black Knight?
|
| ARTHUR
| I do not challenge you.

The BLACK KNIGHT stares impassively and says nothing.

ARTHUR
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.

Hint of a pause as he waits for a reaction which doesn't come. ARTHUR
is only slightly thrown.

... I seek the bravest and the finest knights in all the world to join
me in my court at Camelot ...

The BLACK KNIGHT remains silent

ARTHUR
You have proved yourself worthy. ... Will you join me?

Silence.

| ARTHUR
| A man of your strength and skill would be the chief of all my knights ...
|
| BLACK KNIGHT
| Never.
|
ARTHUR
You make me sad. But so be it. Come Patsy.

As he moves, the BLACK KNIGHT bars the way.

BLACK KNIGHT
None shall pass.

ARTHUR
What?

BLACK KNIGHT
None shall pass.

ARTHUR
I have no quarrel with you, brave Sir knight, but I must cross this bridge.

BLACK KNIGHT
Then you shall die.

ARTHUR
I command you, as King of the Britons to stand aside.

BLACK KNIGHT
I move for no man.

ARTHUR
So be it!

ARTHUR draws his sword and approaches the BLACK KNIGHT. A furious
fight now starts lasting about fifteen seconds at which point ARTHUR
delivers a mighty blow which completely severs the BLACK KNIGHT's left
arm at the shoulder. ARTHUR steps back triumphantly.

ARTHUR
Now stand aside worthy adversary.

BLACK KNIGHT
(Glancing at his shoulder)
'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR
A scratch? Your arm's off.

BLACK KNIGHT
No, it isn't.

ARTHUR
(Pointing to the arm on ground)
Well, what's that then?

BLACK KNIGHT
I've had worse.

ARTHUR
You're a liar.

BLACK KNIGHT
Come on you pansy!

Another ten seconds furious fighting till ARTHUR chops the BLACK
KNIGHT's other arm off, also at the shoulder. The arm plus sword, lies
on the ground.

ARTHUR
Victory is mine.
(sinking to his knees)
I thank thee O Lord that in thy ...

BLACK KNIGHT
Come on then.

ARTHUR
What?

He kicks ARTHUR hard on the side of the helmet. ARTHUR gets up still
holding his sword. The BLACK KNIGHT comes after him kicking.

ARTHUR
You are indeed brave Sir knight, but the fight is mine.

BLACK KNIGHT
Had enough?

ARTHUR
You stupid bastard. You haven't got any arms left.

BLACK KNIGHT
Course I have.

ARTHUR
Look!

BLACK KNIGHT
What! Just a flesh wound.
(kicks ARTHUR)

ARTHUR
Stop that.

BLACK KNIGHT
(kicking him)
Had enough ... ?

ARTHUR
I'll have your leg.

He is kicked.

Right!

The BLACK KNIGHT kicks him again and ARTHUR chops his leg off. The
BLACK KNIGHT keeps his balance with difficulty.

BLACK KNIGHT
I'll do you for that.

ARTHUR
You'll what ... ?

BLACK KNIGHT
Come Here.

ARTHUR
What are you going to do. bleed on me?

BLACK KNIGHT
I'm invincible!

ARTHUR
You're a loony.

BLACK KNIGHT
The Black Knight always triumphs. Have at you!

ARTHUR takes his last leg off. The BLACK KNIGHT's body lands upright.

BLACK KNIGHT
All right, we'll call it a draw.

ARTHUR
Come, Patsy.

ARTHUR and PATSY start to cross the bridge.

BLACK KNIGHT
Running away eh? You yellow bastard, Come back here and
take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"




Daniel

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Posted By: Mark

Al,
Don't be so hard on yourself. You probably would not turn into a drug abusing jerk. There are lots of people who have as many advantages as Barry Nonds has but who also have good natures and turn out fine. I think it takes an especially defective nature to be Barry Bonds. As for Cobb, life did hand him a difficult youth---but, again, I've known people with similar stories who turned out ok. They took two different paths and each ended up being a great hitter and a lousy human being. Neither seems especially enviable.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff, what caused Bonds to be the way he is? It had to be something in his childhood and upbringing. He didn't magically develop this personality on his own. Granted, seeing one parent shoot the other is pretty traumatic and extreme, but there were obviously things that happened in Bonds life that caused him to become the person that he is.

Do you honestly think that media scrutiny in Cobb's day is anything close to what goes on today? If you do, you've lost all credibility with me.

And to others that are joining in on the chorus of Cobb was a product of his generation, that's a completely bogus excuse. If that were the case, if every White attacked and tried to kill Blacks at the same rate that Cobb did, I'd venture guess that there wouldn't be too many Blacks left alive today in the US. Most people were racist back then, but most people didn't find it neccessary to attack Blacks on a regular basis either.

All these posts just prove my point that people will let personal prejudices get in the way of facts to justify their opinions and find any excuse to protect those they admore, no matter how big a scumbag they are.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Jeff are you suggesting Cobb was not responsible for his own actions because he was mentally ill? In your opinion was he "insane" in the sense of the insanity defense? EDITED TO ADD Jay my "Cobb was the product of his generation" post was purely sarcastic by the way.

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Posted By: prewarsports

Ty Cobb gets a bad rap on many, many areas of his life. I am not advocating he was a great guy, as he obviously was not, but people forget several things. First of all 100% of all white men born in the 19th century were racist, especially in Georgia. It is just a fact of out history and to argue anything otherwise only represents an ignorance to history of our countries social fabric. Tris Speaker was a KKK member but how often do we refer to him as a horrible racist? They were being taught by their parents, teachers, religious leaders etc to be racist and then now people 100 years later condemn them for believing what ever authority figure in their lives have told them was true. I am not saying everyone hated minorities, but even early civil rights activists were racist in their practices (people like Abraham Lincoln etc were racist but realized slavery was wrong at its base). Hindsight is 20/20 and we now know that racism is horrible, but in the late 19th century it was a normal part of life and to condemn someone for being racist in 1900 would essentially be condemning the entire world for a commonly held practice. It was normal, legal and completely acceptable to be racist in Ty Cobbs playing days. We now know how wrong that was, but they did not have the benefit of the teachers and education tools we possess today to break those stereotypes.

Ty Cobb was also subject to the experience of his adultering mother kill his beloved father. How many of us would be able to overcome that unscathed? Maybe we should also blame Cobb in the days before mediaction and therapy for taking his playing to an extreme every day to try and prove something to his dead father.

It is also speculated that much of the Al Stump book is fabrication and should not be looked at as pure fact. I am sure some of it is true, but some of it is absolutely fiction.

Ty Cobb was a bad dude with plenty of faults, no doubt. But to treat him as one of the worst men of all time because he was a product of his time and horrible social situations is a bit far fetched. I am not sticking up for him, but to villify a man born in the 1880's using 2007 standards of conduct is laughable.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I understand that many people around the turn of the century were racist.

There is, however, regardless of the time, no justification for physical assaults on people - particularly for the reasons Cobb did it. Jumping into the stands and beating a fan, stabbing someone, et cetera - those are crimes today, just as they were crimes in the early 1900s.

The implication that a person was justified in beating people because times were different back then doesn't hold water with me.

Yes, overt racism was more prevalent then - and in many circles, it was acceptable behavior. But I don't know that there's any justification for the physical element of it.

Thankfully, we get to judge Ty Cobb on his phenomenal baseball playing ability instead of his personality issues.

Hopefully, history will let us do the same for Barry Bonds.

-Al

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark, I never said that Cobb was a victim. I simply attempted to explain some reasoning for his psychotic actions. Sorry if that was a bit too much for you to understand; I'll break it down a bit for you next time.
And I never said Cobb was not responsible for his actions: I simply tried to find some causes in his life that may have triggered his psychotic behavior -- triggers that appear to be absent in Bonds's life. That I think less of a guy who has been given everything since he was born -- and still acts like a petulant jerk, should not be so surprising. And finally, when did I say that the media scrutiny was worse back in Cobb's day? I'm starting to wonder if anyone actually reads what I write out here. I simply pointed out that Cobb's young adult troubles were well documented by the press and in Bonds's case, the overbearing press has yet to find a single thing in his childhood that would suggest a reason as to why he has become a lying, cheating, girlfriend-beating, steroid-taking boor; therefore, since it has never come out, I believe it is fair to presume that nothing earth-shattering happened to Bonds as a youth which caused such behavior.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeff,
No intents offended.
But your statements are way O/T in an O/T thread.
By and large, the expertise which most of us bring to bear here includes baseball and baseball cards. If you want to discuss what makes a looney tick, may I suggest one of those psychodoodle boards.

Regarding the basic O/T thread: I was a NY Giants fan in the 1950s. As such, I came to think that Mays was a top man in baseball. But not the top. There was the guy in St. Louis who would hit a scortching line drive every at bat. Many falling for extra bases. And he hit for average, about one out of three. As good as the Man was, Williams was a cut above. Or two.

Mays was a showman, a tremendous ballplayer for sure, but a bit theatrical. He would, for example, choose a baseball cap which was too big for him, so that he could run out from under it, simulating tremendous speed (which was not all phoney, by any means), just not quite as good as he would put on. He had lots of tricks, he was coached by the experts; who too were very good, but not quite as good as they would put on either. And they fine tuned the routines for decades before MLB woke up.

But there was nobody close to Williams who I ever saw play. He hit for avarage too. Over .340
He hit for power too. He is one of the few in the elite >600 sluggers club consisting of Greenberg, Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Williams and now Bonds. If Bonds can keep it up. Actually, I hope Bonds can bring up his average back to .300, because he is the only member of this group to be under that mark. But Bonds' career is not yet over. He could still drop under a 600 slugger in his quest to set a HR mark that ARod and others may have difficulty achieving.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I'm glad someone else besides myself saw Ted Williams play. I'm getting to think that he'll be the last .400 hitter the game will see. And with power. When the center field camera shot came to TV in about 1954-55, one could really see the poetry of his swing. I remember how mad I was when Ted hit below .300, the only year in 19 that it happened. That was in 1959 when he had a pinched nerve in his neck and couldn't turn his head much at all. In 1957 he hit .388 and with a little speed he would have hit .400 again, but by then Father Time had slowed him down. In the fifties we kid Red Sox fans would check the league's top ten batters and ignore the team standings.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff any not try and find some explanations for Bonds behaviour too? Finding out about a person's childhood, even in these days, is not easy unless you are already in the spotlight. There was no reason to look closely at Bonds until he hit college. We really have no idea what Bonds' childhood was like, outside of assumptions like yours that he must have had it good becuase he came from a rich family with a baseball heritage.

I have read your posts and you tried make the fact Cobb's childhood being know by the public was the equivalent of modern media scrutiny. It doesn't take a poking and prying media to find out something like. Try applying the same standards you use for Cobb and use them for Bonds too.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, I just emailed Bonds and asked him why he's such a jerk and why his head has grown so much in the past 15 years. I told him that Network 54 readers want to know. He just replied and told me to F myself.

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Posted By: John H.

Peter Chao said, "Mays had the edge in two facets of the game over Cobb. He was a better fielder and had more power."

We will never know the true extent of Cobb's power. He didn't go to the plate to hit the ball over the fence. He played small ball, as did everyone else in his era. He once disparaged Ruth's homeruns for being cheap hits. Who knows? Had he wanted to, Cobb may have been able to lead the league in homeruns on a regular basis before the Babe moved to the outfield on a fulltime basis.

John

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, the story goes that tired of being questioned about Ruth's ability to hit homeruns, Cobb responded by stating that hitting them was not a big deal - and proceeded to hit 5 over the next two games before going back to hitting singles and triples.

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Posted By: jay behrens

For his era, Cobb had amazing power. Just look at the number of doubles and triples he hit. I don't have a breakdown of SLG for deadballers, but I'd be willing to bet that Cobb is tops, or at least top 5 for the deadball era.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, for some reason Cobb is viewed today as a 'small' ballplayer (perhaps because of the 'small ball' style he played). The truth is he was above-average sized as a player and was in the top 10 in HRs in the American league for 12 years of his career, leading the league one year.

Edited to add: as for slugging percentage, Cobb led the league for six straight years and eight total in his career.