moderating on the board

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Posted By: leon

In my efforts to make this the best place I can I have something I want to bring up....

I got an email today from a valued board member that says, in essence, they don't like some comments being made that are offensive to others. Here is an excerpt of what they said....


"The thread about Jesika and her Wagner card is insultating and degregating. In my opinion, the comment about her meeting her future husband at the family reunion is no different than Don Imus' comments. The comment was made as a joke, but its wrong and the board doesn't need any of it. Same goes for Hal's comment in another thread about the Tango Eggs. I click into a thread hoping to learn from the comments in it, and someone has to go and post something inappropriate, given the light of the Imus situation especially."




Personally I don't really care if some off handed comments are made but maybe I am so numbed by what goes on that I am not in tune with the majority of board members feelings. My response is basically that it was a joke and not that big of a deal. Personally, I think what Imus said was very wrong. He has been well reprimanded and now folks need to move on. I almost think what has been made out of his comment is as wrong as his comment, if not more so.....just my personal opinion on that. My main question is, "should I take a harder line on jokes like this on the board?". Should I try to tighten the ship on personal insults and/or off color jokes?

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Posted By: Chad

Within reason, of course. I think the board is well moderated in this regard. You gotta be able to let people hang themselves.

BTW, what's "degregating"?

--Chad

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Posted By: Dave F

My IMO is let the jokes go. Some people are funny...some aren't. As long as jokes don't get too far into personal insults, I don't see the harm.

Everybody has differant levels they reach as far as taking offense to something. I didn't see a harm personally in the "family reunion" joke...and I'm from Georgia! I just don't think most people want a board moderated to the point that you can't voice anything other than facts...

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Posted By: Mark

I started the thread in hopes of finding out what had happened with the Wagner card. I had hoped to maybe hear from her. Now with all the comments i don't think she will respond.

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Posted By: Dave F

Mark..I really doubt she would have responded, nor do I think she has even checked back in on this board. By now she has found out her card was fake, if she didn't know it before...I seriously doubt she is going to decide to start getting into the hobby...therefore, we won't ever hear from her again.

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Posted By: Joe D.

but depending on where it comes from - I usually give the poster the benefit of the doubt - and just chalk it up as a poor attempt at humor.

that being said...

I would love an "ignore this thread" button next to each thread. It would let all of the threads I am interested in move to the front page of my screen.

And if someone is offended by the contents of a thread... they can just click to ignore it.


Can we get something like that going?

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I say leave em for two reasons: I hate to see free speech get censored in any form, and sometimes you learn a lot about a person (positively and negatively) by the comments they make about someone else

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I for one don't think a harder stance needs to be taken towards light hearted jokes. In the short amount of time I have been reading these boards I have yet to read anything that even made me think twice. I read the Jesika thread and don't even recall the family reunion remark and I was born/raised in the south. Stuff like that doesn't even register offensive to me. Perhaps I am not hyper-senstive.

I think its up to the offended person to speak up and let others know that such and such comments offended them. After which the offendee can make amends if he or she chooses to and/or the Moderator can take action if need be.

Jesika seemed to respond well to the comments thrown at her. I am sure she didn't appreciate some of them and she let those offenders know what she thought. I think she was more upset at coming to the realization that her card was fake more so than the barbs she was taking. She might have walked away disappointed but she didn't walk away with a black-eye. She gave as much as she got.

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: Mike

I believe the forum is being handled correctly. And efficiently. Some folks on here are way too thin skinned and get offended at just about anything, they don't agree with. Personally, nothing offends me, because words are meaningless. Some comments or actions, both on here and off, may make me angry. But offended ? Never. Because leon is forced to deal with us humans, there are going to be times when us humans say or do dumb things. That's the nature of the beast. But..there is one thing I wish there that could be (excuse the pun) "trimmed" down a bit, and that is the name calling. Comments that neither add anything to the knowledge base, or educate. Things such as "stupid" "dumb" "idiot" I get real tired of that crap. It's a real turnoff. And it usually says more about the person doing the insulting or name calling. I had an individual absolutely come unglued on here one time, because I "jokingly" took a shot at Hillary Clinton. I mean come on. If we could just try and stick to old cardboard, or related topics, it would be much more pleasant. But leon is doing a good job, and the best he can. I assume Leon must have a life away from this board as well...He can't baby sit 24 hours a day. Nor should he have to.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Chris- I think it may be more complicated than that because if you believe in any free speech then what Don Imus said would be perfectly acceptable. But it was in fact despicable.

Leon, you are as tolerant and laissez-faire as you can possibly be. I think you have a right to expect people on the board to conduct themselves maturely. If you feel in your heart that something is inappropriate and might offend others, it is not be a bad idea to take some kind of stand. Perhaps start out with an email to the poster to express your opinion that the comment was in poor taste. It's your call in the end, but you don't have to feel that every time you get involved that you are censoring the board.

CBS and MSNBC are rightfully censoring Imus, and most reasonable people feel it is the proper thing to do.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Barry,

I agree what Imus said was reprehensible, but I believe he had a right to say it. Our society, not censorship, should determine if he gets to keep his platform for speech or not, in my humble opinion.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Chris- do Neo-Nazis have the right to march down Main Street of your town and spew their venom? Can the Klan have a meeting by your town hall and call for the lynching of minorities? I don't interpret free speech to mean you can say any blessed thing you want. There have to be limits.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Barry,

who has a right to set those limits? i would argue our society as a whole does, wouldnt you?

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Posted By: Mike

Here we go again.......

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Posted By: barrysloate

If society has that right, and I agree with you on that point, then isn't Leon as moderator a member of society?

Edited to add Mike, I'll keep it civil

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Posted By: joe

Barry, unfortunately yes the neo-nazis and the klan can have marches down anyones main street. of course they can't call for lynching of minorities. That's what our country has come to, very, very liberal views. We see these marches on the news time and time again.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Chris Bland

barry,

I am making this my last post on this, because this is a baseball card board and i personally prefer to talk cards when i do post.

My subsequent replies to you were not about the board per se; I was responding to your inclusion of Imus as a means of comparison to my comment about free speech.

I would agree Leon is the "representative" of our society here, and I think he does a fine job of checking with us to gather a consensus as to what is acceptable or not. My initial response was my one vote in the matter...

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Posted By: Josh Adams

The First Amendment only applies to government regulation. not an internet message board moderated by a couple guys.

Second, the First Amendment only works when it protects the most reprehsible viewpoints. Nazis have just as much of a right to march (as long as that march does not include physical attacks), as the NAACP, DARE, or any other group. To sensor because one finds a certain viewpoint vile, is a scary thing. What happens if one day society finds your viewpoint "unacceptable."
It's got nothing to do with "liberal" although people like to throw that word around alot. In fact, Sandra Day O'Connor would probably laugh at being called such, considering her opinions in various First Amendment cases.
Bottom line, everyone should be able to say what they want (with general exceptions, i.e. "fire" in a crowded room). Of course, we all have the choice of just not listening.

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Posted By: Chad

I'm not sure I get that. The Klan and the skinheads have a consitutional right to assemble--that's neither liberal or conservative, just American. Threatening to lynch people is, of course, against the law. And I'm not sure liberals or conservatives would argue that kind of "speech" shouldn't be illegal as it obviously should be. As for Imus, it's free speech all around--Imus said what he wanted, people offended reacted in the way they wanted, and CBS and NBC reacted in the way they saw fit. The government stayed out of it as they should. It was an orgy of freedom!

--Chad

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Posted By: barrysloate

Imus was in fact free to say what he did.

But you know, it didn't work out too well, and the firestorm it caused really wasn't worth it to him. It might have cost him his career, it was hurtful to a group of mature college women, it was misogynistic and disgraceful, and I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it.

Yes, he was free to say it, but it sure was incredibly stupid. So getting back to the point Leon brought up, I think he has a right to expect a certain decorum on the board.

And Chris, we're just debating, so please don't take it personally. Thank you.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Barry

nothing personal taken at all - i love a good debate (although I generally lose ) but i would prefer it be on a topic like "who is the toughest OJ HOFer" if I am on this board!

take care,

chris

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Posted By: BcD

did you see this!

http://dwb.fresnobee.com/24hour/front/story/3597391p-12869919c.html



BcD

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Posted By: barrysloate

Chris- agreed, but Leon started this thread asking our opinion about whether he should take a stand when someone posts in bad taste. It was as much a question about manners as it was about censorship.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- I did know Vonnegut died, I read his obituary this morning. I saw him occasionally on the East End; I was once at a book party that he attended and he was kind of quiet and not very social.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

If there's anything this country needs it's more censorship and editing, especially on an Internet message board about freaking baseball cards. I'm pretty tired of hearing how offended practically everyone gets over practically anything.

I apologize ahead of time if I offended any two-headed people with my use of the word freaking.

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Posted By: Mike

Couldn't agree more Rob. Right on !

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Posted By: James Feagin

Not that I agree or care what Imus said, there are just a bunch of people that feigned offense at his comments so they wouldn't be thrown under the bus by association. They really weren't offended, it was just convenient for them professionally to be so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey- I'm offended by hip-hop lyrics, I think they are despicable. But nobody asked my opinion.

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Posted By: barrysloate

James- he called girls he never met whores!

Some of them may go to church every Sunday, some may be virgins, many of them are on the dean's list...how could any reasonable person not be offended?

I think an African American offensive lineman who is about 6' 8" and weighs 340 pounds and who has a daughter should take Mr. Imus into a private room, lock the door, and spend about ten minutes showing him what decency is all about. Then perhaps he will think twice next time.

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Posted By: leon

I will only let this thread go a little while longer. I am getting the jest of what the board wants. It's the same thing I want. I promise this thread won't go past this evening, maybe not that late. I just had to make sure I was on track. I am very overboard on not censoring, or editing, sometimes to a fault. I will continue. I love the hobby......

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Posted By: James Feagin

He called girls he never met whores, true. How many nationally-syndicated shock jocks do that, or worse daily, without impunity? The difference is that most of these women are part of a protected group. If these women were not part of a protected group, no one would bat so much as an eye.

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Posted By: Joann

Leon,

I think it should stay the way it is. People do need to have thick skins to off-hand remarks. I don't note that any one individual is routinely over the line or constantly making offensive comments under the guise of humor. People here are generally very good, and even very good people can make a verbal gaffe or even an intentional statement that is maybe too close to the edge. So what? If one or two people were doing it all the time, I have no doubt in my mind it would get addressed in the normal course of moderating the board, based on a recognition that the person offends more than a few people and more than occasionally.

And a note on Imus - because there truly is some parallel to his situation and the question of this thread:

Perfect example of a good person saying the wrong thing (see above). His show is sarcastic, edgy and no real sacred cows. Even in that context, the comment was over the line - no doubt about that.

But the aftermath was a complete shame. He apologized and it was very sincere. He suggested things he was going to do to make up for it and change his show. If you saw him on his show the past few days I have no doubt the contrition was genuine.

But that wasn't enough for the head-hunters who smelled blood and saw an opportunity to grandstand on it (you listening, Al Sharpton?). They took a bad thing and made it worse by completely disallowing any opportunity for reconciliation or dialog. Only complete destruction of the man and his career would do.

So .. to tie these two together. Let's let good people make jokes and be themselves on this board. If something occasionally goes over the line let it stay in that context. Save the total destruction for someone that really deserves it - in this case by constant and unabated racial, sexual or otherwise offensive humor. We'll know when it happens. Just like we knew that Sean had crossed a different line in a different way.

Thanks for the ear.

Joann

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Posted By: Mark

Perhaps a related question is whether there should be any limits on what may be said in n54 chat. For example, should racial slurs/threats against member families be allowed?

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Posted By: Jason L

The Don Imus thing has become embarrassingly out-of-control. The levels of hypocrisy being displayed by nearly everyone grabbing a microphone on this topic this week is astonishing. Now it has spread to this Board?

The inbreeding joke in the Jesicka thread was funny. People who are offended by an incest joke, well...perhaps they should be upset about other things in their lives....I mean no personal attacks here, honest.

I agree with JoshA...which is just great....as a White Sox fan, you are supposed to be my mortal enemy, and for the first time in my memory, I am on your side. wonderful...my whole universe is about to go spinning madly out of control.

RobD - very well said.

Leon, to answer your original question and keep myself on topic here, I have to say that I am quite impressed with your moderating skills, and generally, once a thread has nothing left to offer, you step in and lock it down, which is appropriate. Please continue to do so.

carry on everyone, nothing to see here...



Edited to say that I love when these issues pop up in the news, because that's when I am reminded that freedom of speech in this country is apparently based upon race.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think if you are touchy about every little thing that is on this board then this board is not for you. Leon has always handled everything in the right manner. What Imus said was hateful and nasty and he had no RIGHT to say it -- not when he's got an employer and has some responsibility to them (and presumably to the listening public). If he wanted to say it on the street corner that would have been ok. Not when he's working for a company and the company has sponsors and responsiblities to listners and viewers. My advice to those who get upset about some of the stuff they read here: go to a different thread. In defense of Hal, by the way, he said nothing inappropriate at all. Lighten up, Francis.

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Posted By: John S

My humble opinion...let the comments stand. As an educator I walk on eggshells constantly fearing that the an innocuous statement will be misconstrued by a student. As a society we have become hypersensitive and vigilant regarding any action or statement that can be interpreted as offensive to some group.

With that said the comments that Imus made were tasteless and crude. The Rutger's girls have every right to be offended by his statements. However, if I say that I am offended if someone calls me a white-trash hillbilly that should carry as much weight. I have disciplined students, both white and black, for using racially charged language. The N-word or cracker doesn't sound good coming out of anyone's mouth.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Joann---Agreed. Protected groups can say anything, and if it so happens to cross the line, then no worries, they can simply apologize. Their historic oppression has entitled them to not be responsible for words they may utter. Non-protected groups have to monitor themselves and if they cross the line, there's hell to pay, an NO apology can take it back or make ammends.

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Posted By: leon

I hear ya....but please understand that I can't moderate the chatroom area. It's impossible. Should those things be said over there? Absolutely not. They are dispicable. I don't go in there too often on purpose. I feel it's a benefit for some to have it, but everyone needs to know that it is no different than talking in person and I can't moderate it...nor will I take action on stuff that goes on in there, since I don't moderate it. If I get too many folks complaining then I could shut the whole thing down. Except for a few isolated incidents, which were bad, I haven't had to deal with much over there in over 2 yrs....Actually, including yours, there might have been about 1 other issue....The "shi* to equity ratio" tells me I should leave it the way it is.....In retrospect I am truly sorry for what was said over there about the situation you are talking about....

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Posted By: barrysloate

For anyone who thought what Imus said was just boys being boys, and that it is alright to say what he did because all shock jocks do it, please answer just this one question:

If it were your daughter who played on the Rutger's basketball team, would you still be chuckling? Would you still be saying 'hey, it's America, he is free to express his opinions."

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Posted By: Rob

i have been happy with the content on this board for the past few weeks I've been a member here. Enjoyable reading, and the occasional OT thought just adds flavor.

IMUS - forgive my ingnorance, if thats what it is, but i didn't realize that "nappy head" was a racial term, cuz i've jokingly told friends (of every ethnicity) that they've got nappy hair. I thought nappy meant greasy or something, and didn't realize it was a racist comment. And i didn't think "hoe" was racial either. Maybe i'm wrong. Certainly it wasn't a nice comment, but i don't think many of the people calling for Imus to get fired actually LISTEN to his program in the first place. I'd guess that most of his listeners are use to him taking shots at other people. If you don't like it, change the dial to a different radio station. Some people just want to find something to complain about cuz they have nothing better to do.

So, onto baseball collectibles! What do poeple use to store their big photos/supplements in?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't think folks should be insulting others, but the Jessika thread seemed to be a minor dust up.

Leon should remind people to mind their manors, and that should be sufficient.

I think Leon does a good job as moderator.

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Posted By: Joann

James,

Just to clarify - and I'm not sure this is what you were saying - I did not mean to imply that society allows some groups to say what they want while others can't. I wasn't drawing any distinction between the ability or inability of different groups to freely speak.

I was saying that I thought the Imus situation was an opportunity to have some genuine progress and growth on this issue. I've seen many of what I consider to be fake apologies by public figures that misspoke. I didn't think his apology was fake at all, nor compelled. I thought he was genuinely sorry and not just because of the brushfire it had started.

It could have been very positive if the hand had been allowed to play itself out. We may have seen what it looks like, and what can happen, when there is a true effort for constructive reconciliation following such a huge blunder.

But the howlers (and they were from ALL groups - not just African-Americans or even Al Sharpton) made this impossible.

And Barry - no, I wouldn't be chuckling at all. I wasn't chuckling even though I have no dog in this fight, as they say. But if I were in that position, I hope I would try to at least hear the man out and see where it went, and to recognize that people do make mistakes. I don't know if I would - I have never been in that position. But I hope I would.

Joann

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Where are you from? Guess because I grew up in NC on a tobacco farm (true)that it's pretty clear to me that use of the word "nappy" is definitley a racially charged word.

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Posted By: Jason L

and to be honest, I am not entirely sure how I would respond.
I probably wouldn't like it, but:
1) Athletes at that level and above are entertainers, and as such are in the public eye, and should be accustomed (or getting accustomed) to being a target for praise and derision alike
and
2) I hope I would shrug it off, just as I would comments made by other people who don't know me

I just don't know how truly offended those folks can be, given that they are a public target, entertainers, in the spotlight, etc...there is no personal relationship or contact that should cause that comment to truly hit a sensitive nerve...

I don't know
good question though.

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Posted By: JK

I think the board is fine just the way it is - there is no need to censor every joke or comment that is made.

As for the Imus situation, I couldnt agree more with Jason's comments about hypocracy. While I think the comments were inappropriate, why is it that Jesse Jackson of all people is calling for him to be fired - has everyone forgotten about Jackson's "hymie town" comment? How many other anti-semitic comments do you think he has made? What moral high ground does he stand on where he can call for anyone's termination without offering up his own resignation? Why is it ok for comedians and rap artists to throw around racist words and everybody yawns. Finally, I dont know if anybody recalls this or not, but soon after the Duke Lacrosse players were accussed of rape, Sharpton and Jackson were in Durham convicting those kids in the media. Does anybody here think that Sharpton or Jackson called them to apologize for their actions now that the charges have been dismissed?

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Posted By: barrysloate

There are different degrees of insults, and there are different levels of transgression. Mr. Imus's comment was so over the top that I think it might be too late for an apology.

Chris Rock is a very talented comedian and his stand-up is peppered with the "N" word; and audiences generally howl in laughter at his caustic humor.

Does any one feel it would be funny if Jerry Seinfeld used the "N" word in one of his comedy monologues?

Dom Imus has proven to me what I've always suspected about him- that he's just plain stupid, has nothing worthwhile to offer, and it's now time for him to get off the air. Maybe Mr. Sharpton and company are milking the moment for everything it's worth, but for once I think I agree with him.

Added to say Josh, Jesse Jackson's anti-semitic remark is just as despicable. Too many public figures think they can get away with this stuff and they should all be taken to task. Has nothing to do with being thin-skinned; it's just about simple decency.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Imus' remarks were stupid and insensitive. He was trying to be funny and it backfired on him. I don't believe he is a racist. Imagine if Howard Stern had said the same thing....nobody would be talking about it today.

PS. Tom Nieves I don't know who you are, but you just made milk go up my nose. Thanks for the laugh.

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Posted By: Dave S

Amen JK!! One thing I think that should remain in context is the target audience that Imus draws...those that listen are generally used to his shenanigans and biased comments regardless of whether related to race, religion, or sex. Yes his ignorance borders on insanity and yes his comment what wrong...but those are the exact kind of comments that draws the audience he appeals to. And right or wrong, the big advertisers have known his tactics for years and continued to fund the show...
As for Sharpton and Jackson, as Matt Lauer insinuated on the Today show...they want equal rights for everyone, "as long as they aren't white"! Jesse Jackson has and always has been about Jesse Jackson, not the black race in general. And Sharpton follows that same example. He made the comment this morning that the reason black rappers use the "ho", etc. lyrics they do is because of their white producers demand it! Totally ludicrous, get over it!

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Posted By: Alan

Leon -

This thread is going to get real ugly, real fast. I have a feeling you'll lock it before evening....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdlKux504-c