OT-$282,587 for a Mantle PSA 9

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

There are probably a few guys still in mourning over the passing of The Mick. But they will get over it and the prices will drop.

A better measurement of Mantle's popularity is to look at the prices for 1969 White Letter Mantle. When the price of that card starts coming down, Mantles will be entering into a slump.

I really didn't have anything to say, I just wanted to be post 100.

Peter

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Posted By: Paul

Ted, maybe my memory is just fading much, much earlier than it should. I could have sworn it was listed as a triple print for awhile.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I remember that the Mick and Jackie have always been listed as double-prints. Possibly what you remember as being a triple-print is the '59 Mickey Mantle All-Star card.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Peter, this is Mickey in his early 20's...a much closer fit to the 1952 card:



Frank

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Frank I don't see the resemblance there either. His 51 and 53 Bowman cards look like him, but the 52T, to me, looks more like my brother in law than it does Mantle.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Mantle still generates a lot of interest on Net54, based on the responses in this Thread.

Anyhow, what uniform # did Mickey wear as a rookie in 1951 ?

Then, why did he have to switch to #7 in 1951, and who else wore #7 in 1951 ?

And, if those are too easy......what was Joe DiMag's rookie uniform # ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

These look a lot more like him to me than does the 52.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Ted I believe he originally wore 6, being considered the next in line to Ruth Gehrig and DiMaggio (3 4 and 5). I think the other guy who wore 7 that year was Cliff Mapes. Not sure about Dimaggio's number.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Peter you are on a roll, you got two of the trivia questions.....so, now for the 3rd......
why did Mantle have to give up #6 ?

And, Cliff Mapes is the answer to what Trivia quiz ?

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I know he was awful during his initial stint with the club, so maybe they thought the number making him the next in line was too much pressure? No idea about Mapes.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Mantle was given Bobby Brown's #6 and when Brown returned from military duty he wanted back his old #6.

When Cliff Mapes joined the Yankees in 1947 he wore #47 and in 1948, Mapes wore #3 until the Yankees fi-
nally retired Ruth's uniform #3. Then Mapes was given #7......so, Mapes wore two great HOFer's uniform #s.

Joe DiMaggio's first unifom # was 9.

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Posted By: cmoking

Ted, great trivia! Do you know if any other Yankees wore #3?

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I have a black and white Japanese card that has a photo of Mantle with #6 visable. The picture was taken in spring training 1951, but the card issued in 1953. I will post it when I can.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER

I have the complete rosters and uniform #s of the Yankees from 1929-1971....when you
look thru it, by the 1950's there really was no "rhyme or reason" as to who got assigned
any specific #s. Number "6" was just available when Bobby Brown went into the military
in 1950-51. A good example of what I am saying is in the answer to King's question.

KING

NY Yankees uniform #3 was worn by.....

"Twinkle Toes" Selkirk 1935-42
Bud Metheny 1943-46
Hal Peck 1946
Roy Weatherly 1946
Frank Colman 1946-47
"Ducky" Medwick 1947
Allie Clark 1947
Cliff Mapes 1948

August 16, 1948 Babe Ruth passed away and his uniform #3 was retired.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

To respond to your earlier question, I think the Pafko psa 10 could be the hobby's first post-war million dollar card. I ewould think it would go for higher than a Mantle 10 which I would think would be about a $750,000 card.

Jim

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I don't know the final number, but there would be quite a fight for a PSA 10 Pafko and I agree that it would set a record for a post-1948 baseball card.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

With all due respect to Andy Pafko.....I watched him play when I was a kid, he had a iong 17-year career,
BA = .285, and hit 213 HR's with the Cubs, Dodgers and Milw. Braves.

But, if his 1952 Topps card (#1) were to sell for a Million, irregardless of grade, this would be the ultimate
example of absurdity in this hobby. And, I'll predict that within a year after such an event, such a purchase
will have de-valuated to less than 1/2 of this price. For, such events are of "fleeting and foolish" moments.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I agree with Ted about the absurdity part, but not about the deflating part. Unless another 10 shows up someday, which I think is unlikely.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I'm not the one who is going to buy it if it comes up for sale. But I can offer my house in Sag Harbor straight up for it in a trade. Should I do it?

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Posted By: JimB

I wholeheartely disagree. Though I realize a Pafko would sell for an insane amount of money, there is no way it would go higher than a PSA 10 Mantle head to head. The Mantle may be the first post-War million dollar card, but I think the Pafko in a PSA 10 would not go for more than $200-300k. Even that is insane for a common. Would a PSA 8 in that slot for a high-grade set not do the trick?
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- while you very well may be correct the Pafko, like the 33G Bengough, is a card with a reputation of being impossible to find in nice shape. High grade 52T Mantles are really not that difficult. If the Pafko came up for auction and the top ten set registry people went after it, I can't even imagine the havoc they would wreak. And each of those ten probably already has a Mantle in at least an 8, if not a 9 or 10. Of course the whole thing is insane, but that's the hobby.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Those who don't realize the value of Pafko obvioussly do not collect graded cards. This is a pop 1 with no 9s!!!!!!!!!!! The toughest card in the most popular post-war set there is!!!!!!!


JimB--I can guarantee the Pafko would go for $500K because I would pay that--but I can think of 4 guys at least off the top of my head that would outbid me. I think at $500K, the 52 Pafko in PSA 10 would be a terrific buy.

Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim:

Not a criticism at all, just a legitimate question. I understand how tough the Pafko is.

You would pay $500K for a PSA 10 Pafko. Wouldn't you worry that somewhere along the line, a 9 or a 10 might pop up somewhere, either from another unopened find, from a high-grade raw collection, or perhaps from a high-end 8 that got bumped to a 9? Wouldn't an increase in pop - even an increase of one - have an impact on the value of the 10?

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

Do not think any more Pafko 10s will pop up.

If I bought it for $500,000 which in my opinion would be a steal I would look to flip it for a Pafko 8(pop 9)and $400,000.

As I said, I think there would be at least 4 buyers that I could think of for that card with 2 likely to go over a million...and that excludes a wealthy LTS guy who might top them all??? You know who I mean.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I really don't understand collectors who will pay huge sums of money for condition rarity. $500,000 for a 52 Topps Pafko??? A card that can be had in lesser condition on ebay EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR. An extrememly common card. Sure it's rare in PSA 8-10, but if you're buying the card for the number on the slab then IMO you are a collector of numbers and not cards. And strictly for the purpose of competition of which this hobby is not and should not be about.

If someone willing to pay a half a million dollars for an Andy Pafko card is the backbone of the hobby then we're in worse shape than I thought.

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Posted By: Bob

I agree 100% Dan. Can you imagine how many really nice pre-war tobacco and caramel cards you could buy for $500,000??? It staggers the mind, my mind at least...

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Posted By: NetJr

Quote: "And strictly for the purpose of competition of which this hobby is not and should not be about."

I don't agree with this assessment, its a fine opinion and each is welcome to it as much as they want, but its just an opinion. To state that it "should not be about" might be your opinion but mine is opposite. I think the registries are quite intriguing and fun. Without them the hobby may have even less interest.

A $250k card is certainly not something I'm going to buy now (maybe never). But I still don't understanding begrudging those who can - and the reasons why they do so.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

There are people out there in ANY type of collectibles who want the "best" of everything. I completely understand that. More power to 'em. There are guys buying shiny cards every day (in much greater numbers than we, BTW) who shake their heads at the idea of spending money on an off-grade Joe Tinker card when you can get a beautiful shiny card of Albert Pujols with his autograph on it for a mere $3K. There are people who shake their heads at the idea of buying ANY baseball card when you can get a piece of equipment used by the player instead. There are PLENTY of different ways to collect, and I respect all of them.

And while I would never spend $500K on a postwar common, I would never spend $500K on a prewar HOFer, either. Other people do it, though, and I think that's great.

The Pafko is a tough, tough card in nice shape. That's the appeal of the card. That's ALWAYS been the appeal of the card, as far back as I can remember.

My concern is more related to the idea of buying a card for an extravagant sum based on graded population reports only. Jim is right - I sincerely doubt another 10 will ever pop up. But if an 8 gets bumped to a 9, and then another 9 shows up somewhere down the line, how would that impact the value of the 10? Even Jim says he'd pay $500K for the 10, and flip it for $400K and an 8. Part of this is because Jim collects 8s, not 10s. But Jim, wouldn't you say that part of why you'd flip it for $400K and an 8 would be to mitigate the risk of another 9 or two showing up some day and reducing the value of the 10 slightly?

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

You don't understand people who collect high grade cards and sets. I and others do not do it solely for the numbers. Competition may be a part of it(and the competition part can be a lot of fun as well)but the real reason is we like and can afford nice cards.

I have absolutely no desire to have a off-center Pafko or one with corner wear or creases--that seems to be fine with you--wonderful! I want to collect high-grade sets.

Al,

Thats a good question--I am not sure that 1 or 2 psa 9s would reduce the value of a 10. I suspect if there was a 9 it would find a value of around $400,000 and the 10 would maintain a value of over a million. Just my opinion.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

You know, the difference between a million dollar house and a $50 house is the million dollar one would probably have four bedrooms, be on an acre of land in a nice neighborhood, and perhaps have a swimming pool; while the $50 one would likely be a seat on a park bench.

But the difference between a million dollar Pafko and a $50 Pafko is squarer corners. When you look at it like that, even a PSA 8 collector has to chuckle

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Posted By: Bob

Jim- I am having trouble getting a handle on what exactly you want with respect to cards: do you want to own extremely nice PSA8ish and PSA9ish cards per se or do you simply strive to own the highest graded card known? In other words, if the highest graded known card is an SGC 50, would you want to own it or would you pass on ever owning that particular card because it wasn't an 88? Just curious....
Bob

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That is kinda funny, Barry.

Now you've got me thinking about selling my house, buying a $50 house and spending the profits on cards.

-Al

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Is this absurd or what ?

"Those who don't realize the value of Pafko obvioussly do not collect graded cards. This is a pop 1 with
no 9s!!!!!!!!!!! The toughest card in the most popular post-war set there is!"

Even if we don't collect post-War BB cards....most of us are keenly aware of the "condition scarcity" of
this card.

And, such a statement shows that you are the un-informed....not us.

Furthermore, in the post-War category.......a 1949 LEAF Leroy "Satchel" Paige in equivalent condition
would generate a lot more of excitement than this Pafko card, and perhaps sell for 1/2 million.

And, finally.....
those who live by the "pop reports" (generated only by PSA) will some day suffer from the "pop reports".

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Posted By: paulstratton

I think John McEnroe said it best..." You cannot be serious!"

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, it's not personal, and you're right I do not understand it. More power to you. I just have to chuckle when you and the other 5 guys in the world willing to pay 1/2 million dollars for a common card consider yourselves to be the backbone of the hobby.

Merry Christmas!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Al- a park bench can get awfully cold and lonely in the winter

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

You are wrong. Leaf set not very popular.

Dan,

You are misquoting me--I said that beacuse over half of the dollar value of all transactions was in psa 8 or better cards that the high grade collector was becoming the backbone of the hobby--since low grade pre war collectors do not like not being called the backbone, I just changed it to the majority.


Bob,

Depends--if highest example for most cards was a psa 5 or 6 then no--if there was just a couple of cards bthat had no examples in 8 or better I would likely go for it. Just don't like low grade cards.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- do you really think a PSA-6 is a low grade card? I have seen a lot of 6's that are awfully nice.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

No-mid grade--but I have no interest in 6s.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

Please put your name by your post, per the board rules. IF you don't then I will be deleting it...nothing personal and thanks much.....

Btw, I think collecting numbers on slabs is fine...if that's what you're into...it's not card collecting and the card hobby though...

Jim- if you would collect for the love of the game, the art on the cards, the history of the cards, the friendships the hobby can bring, then you would be much happier. You don't ever sound like you are having fun. Remember the thread about the E221 Bishops I picked up, and how excited I was/am, that's what it's all about. It's about the 5 day frat party every year called the National...The Net54 dinner where 60 or so folks get together and meet and talk. You concentrate on the number on the slab and most of us concentrate on everything else. Just a few words you might think about. Take care

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Posted By: barrysloate

That was sort of what I was thinking, but said it in fewer words. I respect everyone's decison to collect what they want, but it's going to be hard to convince me that PSA-8 guys aren't just collecting the labels; because the physical difference between a nice 6 and an 8 is pretty insignificant. Like Jim said, it's really more of a competition. Fair enough, just not my thing. If I want to compete I play chess. If I collect I don't care what the other guy has, I'm just happy to enjoy what I have.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

I think all ways of collecting are fine.

But I have some advice for you--get all your cards graded by SGC or PSA and upgrade your dogs to PSA 8 --you will have much greater peace of mind and enjoy the hobby more. Just a few words Leon you might think about.

Seriously Leon where do you get off talking about my happiness or lack thereof. I have a great job, a wonderful family and I love the hobby. I collect for different reasons you do. If its all about the Bishops for you and frat parties--great--I am happy for you. For me its collecting high grade sets that makes me happy--comprende?

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Exactly--collect what makes you happy--thats what I am doing.

By the way, do you have a chess rating?

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

What frat parties? Leon is 45.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Many years ago I played tournaments and had a rating around 1600. Most of my chess playing days were at the Village Chess Shop on Thompson Streeet, and in Washington Square Park. I preferred the casual game over tournaments. But I really don't play much anymore.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Thats about my rating too although on my Kasparov computer game I am at about 1800.

When we meet for dinner in January maybe we can play a quick game or two of chess.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hey Leon when you upgrade your 4BH Kelly to an 8 can I have your beater?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I'm always up for a game but we may have a few distractions at the dinner. Maybe we can play an online game sometime.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Leon just said what a lot of us have not said to you, and although I share his feelings regarding
your style of collecting....high-value plastic is your thing. So, I say let's live and let live.

But, what a good number of us don't care for is your continuous condescending "bullcrap" that
you have thrown at us this past month. It's getting tiresome.....you admonish us not to judge
you. However, have you actually read some of statements you have posted here ? You are
constantly deriding the rest of us for not being like you. You just don't get it.....we don't ever
want to be like you.

I'd bet anyone that you have not even bothered to read any of the more worthwhile Threads
about vintage cards and collecting that many of us take the time and effort to research and
share with each other on this Forum. You are just to self-centered to bother.

I'm sure you will dismiss these comments I have made, as you think you are better than all of us.
So, be it....you do your thing....and leave us alone to do ours.

Just give us a "damn break" will you, man !

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Having been in Jim's Collection Room, I can attest that he's a very happy collector. In showing his cards to us, I saw the same look in his eyes that we all share when we discuss our cardboard, be they low grade, mid grade or high grade.

That said, I'm hurt that he would rather have a Pafko card in 10, than a Mickey.

Frank