Questions for Scott Gaynor

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

As you have a major auction coming up and you are a contributor to Network 54, could you provide us with answers to these questions:

1)What is your relationship with restoration expert Paul Messier? Have you ever given cards to Paul and what exactly has Paul done to the cards you have given to him?

2)What will you do to improve the condition of cards that either you buy to resell or are consigned to you? Please address the following:
--cleaning card--such as taking glue off
--erasing pencil marks
--taking out wrinkles and/or creases
--pressing cards
--trimming
--bleaching/restoring

3)What is you view as to the magnitude of this "problem" in the hobby and what needs to be done?

Thank you.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think Jim is a frustrated prosecutor.
It will certainly be interesting to see if people are as forthcoming as Doug has been.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Looks like the gauntlet as been thrown down.

But if there are people who don't respond... Does that affect peoples bidding on there auctions.

I really would like to see Rob come on and put his two cents in as this is where it all began.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I never even heard the name Paul Messier until this week. I guess that's a good sign. Barry

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Posted By: dennis

i think these questions should be asked of the seller in a personnel email or over the phone. not on a public forum. is this the baseball card version of a witch hunt?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dennis,

I disagree. It is for the benefit of all collectors that this is being done and no honest dealer should be afraid of answering these questions.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I have my reasons for asking about Paul Messier. Lets see how Scott responds.

Jim

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Posted By: scgaynor

I have been called out.... but I don't mind answering.

I had Messier remove some cards from a scrapbook album, but I have never had Messier "fix" a card for me and to the best of my knowledge (although I have never asked) he does not do restoration on cards, just photos and prints.

I don't alter or restore cards at all. Same goes for photos, autographs, or anything. There are a few reasons for this, but the biggest are that I don't want to run the risk of damaging the consignors property and I simply don't have the time. I have sold items that have been restored in the past (no cards), but will always disclose that information if I have knowledge of it.

My view is that if you believe that a majority of pre 1960 cards residing in 7-10 holders have not been "fixed", then you are in for a big surprise. The real problem for the purist is that there is no way to really tell. The people who grade cards are human and if they have no history of the card (such as Lifson did on the Lajoie), they won't be able to tell if there was restoration or not. There are people out there who can do work that is not detectible and they work with tools as simple as water and their finger nails. Therefore there is no chemical to detect and nothing to show up under a black light. I don't think that there really is a solution to that "problem."

The upside is that even if a card was once a "5" because it had a small crease or bumped corner, and is now an "8", it will remain and "8". I have never head of, and don't see why, a crease would return on a slabbed card.

Please let me know if you need me to clarify.

Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks Scott--that was helpful(although disheartening)

Could you comment on the things I listed and whether you have done any of those things to cards?

Jim

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Posted By: scgaynor

I have never done any of those things that you mention above. I don't do anything more than describe and grade the item in front of me as I received it from the consignor. When Messier removed the cards from the scrapbook pages it was at the request of the consignor that I contacted him. The cards were held in the album with that white paste that disolves in water so there was really nothing that had to be removed.

Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Thank you for your honesty here.

So you are saying that you would never and have never removed a wrinkle or a crease from a card but you believe that most high end graded cards have been altered in some way?

Jim

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Posted By: Bob

Thanks Scott for reiterating what I and several others here have said many times:

"My view is that if you believe that a majority of pre 1960 cards residing in 7-10 holders have not been "fixed", then you are in for a big surprise."

There are some rosey-colored glasses people on board here who will never, ever believe us but it is good to see it stated once again.

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Posted By: JimB

I would just like to highlight a point that has been ignored. Everybody is talking about cards in 7-10 grades. The Lajoie card that Rob Lifson highlighted was graded far below that. All alterations that adjust grades can potentially reap profits, though clearly bumps to the 8,9, and 10 range can reap the greatest financial payback on the right cards. I think it would be naive to assume that one does not need to shrewdly examine cards in lower grades. If the focus of watchdogs is only on PSA 9s, then the cheaters will just shift from altering cards from vg to ex.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

That wasn't so painful. Scott very clearly stated that unlike Mastro he does not alter cards by any definition of the word. That's good to hear and as someone who does not wish to buy cards that have been touched in any way I would sooner bid in a Gaynor auction than a Mastro.

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Posted By: MikeU

Kudos to Scott for chiming in on the thread.

As others begin to chime in, I wonder if they will be as open and honest as the first. One could cater their answers based on the previous responses. Well, lets hope for honesty and some responses.

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Posted By: MikeU

"i think these questions should be asked of the seller in a personnel email or over the phone. not on a public forum. is this the baseball card version of a witch hunt?"

I am with Jim C. on this and totally disagree with the above. The answers effect all of us and there is no legitimate or honest reason to not answer publicly. It is also a very applicable topic to the health of our hobby in general. Actually, any reluctance to answer publicy makes me more suspicious of the individuals.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The discussion on this thread and others- and I would be remiss if I didn't say Scott Gaynor answered all the questions honestly and is one of the top people in the business- still makes me wonder why collectors pay gravity defying prices for the so-called set registry quality cards. Having been in the hobby for a very long time, I have to tell you that when I first began there weren't really that many pristine cards around. Over the years, an enormous number have entered the marketplace. That in itself is not necessarily suspicious but I've always had a gut feeling that many of the high grade cards we see today have been recently manufactured. I do know for a fact that there are paper restorers who make a living rebuilding cards to virtual mint levels without having any intention of revealing their work. There are cards that I know of that reside in holders that have five-figure SMR values that have been put together with a front and a back from two different cards. I agree with Scott that most people, including myself, don't know the half of what's been done to many of these cards.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I have a great deal of trouble with your most recent post. Personally, I am tired of reading allegations of major fraud with no facts presented supporting them. Out the people doing the work and let's see a list of the five-figure cards you are referencing that are recently manufactured products. If you will not do that, then please do not make such serious assertions.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Did he wake up this morning with a bullseye on his head or something? If the man wants to speak in general terms and is reluctant to make specific accusations on a public forum I have no issue with that, it seems to me to one extent or another numerous of us do the same thing all the time.

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Posted By: William Brumbach

I feel like we've reached the point where everyone is walking around with a bulls-eye on our heads.

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Posted By: Cat

Adam:

Barry said he had a "gut feeling." I appreciate folks, especially with the length of history in the hobby like Barry, stating such gut feelings. In fact, his feelings tend to make sense to me and unfortunately not everything can be proven with evidence and facts. In the mean time, we may just have to rely on certain beliefs and be satisfied with the lack of evidence.

This board turns into way to much of a legal examination of various situations. We need to give that a break. Most of the time, the expression of beliefs is far more pertinent than legal diatribe.

Respectfully,
Darren

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Posted By: Andy Cook

I just want to vouch for Scott. I have known Scott since the mid-90s including a conversation we had where he told me he was going to quit his job and do ebay full time. I always trust any item he sells and that he accurately describes any flaws he detects. This board does a great service in identifying fakes and fakers on ebay, but I don't recall anyone ever questioning on this board any item Scott has posted. He is definitely one of the good guys.

Andy

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- I am not really just speculating, I actually can prove what I say. However, due to confidentiality I can't name names. Remember what happened to Joey Doyle in "On the Waterfront" when he ratted on Johnny Friendly? They pushed him off a roof. If you feel my statements are inappropriate, then fine. I will retract them and just say I think the hobby is fine as is and I am at peace with all that goes on.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion is that people who deceptively alter cards will be dishonest in other ways, ways which collectors will know about-- including authenticity, deceptive descriptions, dubious advertising practices, shill prices to the moon. There's no such thing as a person who is liar and a cheat in one aspect, and honorable and honest in all other ways. Experienced collectors know who are the honest dealers and who are the dishonest. If a collector buys from a dealer known to shill and lie and fib, the collector shouldn't later be shocked to find out that there is a fourth and fifth unethical things the dealer does too.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Jim, I have never removed a crease or wrinkle. I have an idea of how it is done, but I have never even attempted it.

As for most high end cards being altered, it depends on how the collector defines altered. I think that most have had a corner layed down, or some minor defect fixed. It probably depends on the issue as well. There are alot of high grade 1963 Fleers and 1954 and 1955 Bowmans out there since there were finds in those issues.

Going back to what Barry was saying. I have been fortunate enough to get into some old time collections, I am talking about guys who have collected since the 1950s and attended all the early nationals looking for the best cards that they could find. The conversation always gets around to grading and without a doubt there is always a comment like "all those high grade cards didn't exist back then." Since I am not old enough to have attended the early nationals, I have to take them at thier word, as these are guys that would know. Grading has brought out some truely high grade cards, but more "fixed" cards too.

While nobody can detect an altered card 100% of the time, I will say that it has been my experience that SGC has been the best. Sometimes they even detect alterations on cards that have not had any. If anything they have been too conservative, especially lately. The last couple of card groups that I have got back from them have been undergraded in my opinion.

Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Thank you for answering. Nice to have a completely honest and above-board dealer. Based on your answers I will try to direct business to you in the future.

I hope you didn't mind me picking you out. I saw your ebay auction was in 3 days and I knew you were on Network 54 so I selected you.

As for SGC, although I have my whole graded card collection in PSA holders, I have known Dave Forman since he was a teenager and think the world of him. Not along ago I gave him a T206 Johnny Evers portrait in an old SGC holder graded by Joe Merkle to put in a new holder. Dave determined it was trimmed and paid me full retail price for the Evers--some $3,500--clearly unexpected--

Jim

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Posted By: MikeU

Jim C.,

Has Joe O. ever completed a "buyback" for any of your dogs?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike,

Dogs??? In my collection????

Seriously, I have never asked him.

After a bit of a rough period we are buddies again(its a strange world) and I have other issues I am keen on exploring with him.

Jim

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Posted By: MikeU

Other issues with Joe?

OT: Will you buy SGC cards that you need to fill your PSA sets?