What is altering?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I would like to start a thread that includes all different types of alterations (ot something that people might consider an atleration. Here's a few. Please add to the list. I want to get a comprehensive list and then put it to an opinion survey as to what constitutes an alteration:

1) Erasing pen or pencil marks
2) Rebacking a card
3) Adding color (for example, adding a black mark to the N300 background)

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Posted By: Ricky Y

Adding a piece of paper on the surface to repair a tear or chip.

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Posted By: Joann

Removing (or reducing) a crease or wrinkle.

Trimming.

Removing items not present at manufacture but later attached - ie, cleaning. Dirt, stains, glue spots, etc.

Joann

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Posted By: Josh Adams

But isn't removing marks that were not present at the time of manufacturing just "restoring" the card?

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

According to that proposed definition, unless I want to be guilty of an alteration, I can not rinse off my t206 Keeler which I was balancing on my nose while cooking marinara sauce, when it seemed to jump into the sauce.

Would it be ok to let the sauce drip off the card? Or is that too forbidden?

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Posted By: Anonymous

I think that if you spill something on your card its ok to clean that subtance off

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

According to the article posted here earlier today by Jack Goodman, based on a survey of card dealers in 1988, restorations or alterations can be divided into three major areas, according to their acceptability:

Acceptable:
(1) removing gum/wax stains
(2) removing pen/pencil marks

Questionable:
(1) lessening wrinkles or creases

Unacceptable:
(1) filling tack/pin holes
(2) color touch-up
(3) reglossing
(4) rebuilding corners
(5) trimming

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

I also agree that doing anything to a card is altering its present state. But, what is OK and what is not?

I am OK with:

Remove surface grime (wax stain, pizza sauce, etc.)
Erase a super light pencil mark
Remove a tiny surface wrinkle that does not affect the "structural integrity" of the card

To me, all of these are OK. If a light crease (wrinkle) can be taken out and it is impossible to tell, then I do not have a huge problem with it. If the "structural integrity" of the card, as Corey Shanus puts it, is changed then I guess that it could create problems.

Here is what I do not think is OK:

Taking out a crease where the card's "structural integrity" is compromised.
Adding anything: color, paper, gloss, etc.
Cleaning a card with anything that may damage the card (bleach, etc.)
Removing a part of the card (trimming, power erasing borders, etc.)

I guess that all of these things are forms of altering, but the definitely have different severity levels.

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Posted By: Joann

The original post asked for items that people "might consider alterations" for the purpose of putting together a poll to see if there is any consensus on individual items as alterations. It did not ask for items that I or any other individual do consider alterations, but what some people "might consider alterations".

Good idea Fred - it will organize the thoughts and collate opinions that have scattered among several different threads.

Joann

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Posted By: Cobby33

ANYTHING you do to a card from the time it reaches your hand, to the time it leaves your hand. I would except: putting in and out of protective holders and brushing off superficial substances such as dust, pet hair, etc.

Not sure about pizza sauce, though if it doesn't leave a mark without having to add water, etc., then I suppose that's ok. Some pizzas I've eaten taste like pizza sauce on cardboard anyway.

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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

Regarding the 1988 articles on card alterations that Jack dug out -- I wrote one of the articles and edited the other -- thanks to Jack for digging them up. I had literally forgotten all about it -- just don't share the investment article in the same publication -- I think I wrote a paragraph or two about high grade T206's - but the names Mike Greenwell and Chris Sabo vaguely come back to me as well.

Here is what I remember.

I surveyed around 60-75 dealers at the time who participated at shows in Virginia and NC. All the dealers whose opinions I sought were persons who dealt to some degree in vintage material, albeit the majority were dealers in 50's and 60's stuff -- a good 8-10 were dealers in pre-war stuff.

Practically every dealer I talked to had taken panty hose to a card to remove wax stains and/or taken an eraser to a card to remove pencil. Heck we have all seen cards with the prices written on the back in pencil.

While many said they were aware of removing wrinkles/creases - none admitted they had removed wrinkles (although there were a few cards that would trade hands and come back to the next show a little nicer) - but the consensus however was along the lines of "if you couldn't tell what was the big deal", Obviously this was long before third-party grading and the huge multipliers being paid for microscopic differences in cards. And to some degree the financial interest in "spooning" out wrinkles was no where near what it is today.

As to major restorations - other than trimming - most were only vaguely aware of how to detect alterations or what could be done. There were a few people (less than 5?) who were in the same vein of thought as with the creases and wrinkles -- if you couldn't tell then they wanted the nicer looking card.

I know today - if I have suspicions about counterfeit cards or tampering - I don't even buy the card - from the 86 Fleer Jordan rookie to anything vintage -- and I know I have taken quite a few cards over the years out of circulation.

But for any of us that have been in this hobby for any length of time - I think it is naive to not realize that most, if not all of us, have purchased and sold cards that have been tampered with or altered in some way. The practice of "spooning" out wrinkles was somewhat common when I got into the hobby in the late 80's -- how many times have some of those cards exchanged hands?

As an aside -- there was universal agreement that while the removal of marinara sauce was justified -- there was almost an even split when it came to alfredo sauce -- something about "anything that improved the taste of the cardboard substanitally should remain adhered to the card."

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Posted By: Steve M.

1. no
2. yes
3. yes

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The following were mentioned as altering cards:

1) Erasing pen or pencil marks
2) Rebacking a card
3) Adding color (for example, adding a black mark to the N300 background)
4) Removing (or reducing) a crease or wrinkle.
5) Trimming.
6) Cleaning/Removing dirt, stains, glue spots, gum, wax stains.
7) filling tack/pin holes
8) reglossing
9) rebuilding corners

Any other additions?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The opposites are also alterations, such as:
Writing or making marks, skinning cards, removing color or print marks, adding glue, lacquer, etc., and making pinholes.

Additionally professional reconstruction, soaking and stretching, hand cutting (of strips, sheets, notebook covers, etc.)

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Posted By: leon

After further consideration, and listening to all arguments, I will pretty much agree exactly with what Harry said above. Technically doing anything to change the state in which you find a card is altering, of course.(I cut and pasted Harry's answer and changed it a little bit):

I am OK with:

Removal of surface grime (wax stain, paper remnants, glue etc.)
Erase pencil marks and pen marks when possible. Indentions might still be left and such is life. Anyone should be able to see the erased marks in this case and I always disclose these upon selling cards like this (V100's come to mind)
Remove a tiny surface wrinkle that does not affect the "structural integrity" of the card

To me, all of these are OK. If a wrinkle can be taken out and it is impossible to tell, then I do not have a huge problem with it. If the "structural integrity" of the card, as Corey Shanus puts it, is changed then I guess I do have a problem with it. I wouldn't want someone that owned the card in the future to be fooled and have a bad card with a heavy crease taken out and then there is an issue with normal handling and they don't know why (because a big crease was taken out)..

Here is what I do not think is OK:

Taking out a crease where the card's "structural integrity" is compromised.
Adding anything: color, paper, gloss, etc.
Cleaning a card with anything that may damage the card (bleach, etc.)
Removing a part of the card (trimming, power erasing borders, etc.)

I guess that all of these things are forms of altering, but they definitely have different severity levels.
regards

edited to add I am still not going to try to take a wrinkle out of a card...I would probably mess it up and it would be worse than original

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Posted By: John Harrell

I haven't seen paper removal appear yet so I'll add that to the list. Removing paper from the backs of cards having been pasted in albums is a form of "alteration" that I have done many times and will continue to do. However, I do this to enhance my enjoyment of the cards. I do not do this with the intent of reselling the cards in nicer grade.

John