Which is thicker? W517 mini or cut Exhibits

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Sorry to bother you, but I have an application possibly involving several w517 minis which are cut without leaving any dotted lines. Here is the problem:

W517 Mini'sSeptember 27 2006 at 2:11 PMJim Manos Jim Manos (Login JMANOS1)


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The W517 mini's are thicker in stock than the exhibit cards.


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Re: w517 mini or whatSeptember 27 2006 at 8:52 PMdan mckee dan mckee (Login danmckee)


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JIM IS CORRECT. THE EXHIBITS ARE THICKER THAN THE W517 MINIS


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Thank you,
Gil

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Posted By: fkw

They are the same thickness.

Card stock is slightly smoother on the postcards, but if you dont have one of each it is very tough to distinguish them from each other.

The best way to tell is the borders on the left or right of the postcard (cuts) will be thin to nothing. And 3 out of the 4 cut from the postcard will have some type of postcard design on the back (from stampbox to "Post Card" to a small black divider line).

Id also say the postcard cut cards are far rarer than the strip card W517 mini's.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Which position on the exhibit 4 in 1 would represent a cutout with blank back?

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Posted By: fkw

On mine......
The Jackson (bottom right) is blank.
The Waner has a single horizontal line 3/4" from the bottom.
The Judge has "POST CA"
The Kamm has "RD" & stampbox.


And if the other 2 known cards have postcard backs facing the same direction...

The Cochrane and Critz would be blank.

The Grove and Vance would have the line.

The Gehrig and O'Doul would have the "POST CA"

The Donahue and Shire would have the "RD" & Stampbox



Adams page has pictures of the other 2 known cards

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/interestingexhibitcards

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Is this interpretation of your statements correct, Frank?

Only three possible blank backed exhibit 4 in 1 (w517 mini look-alike)cut outs exist: Jackson, Cochrane and Critz. If any of these three suspected cutouts have two wide side borders, they are not cutouts.

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Posted By: John

Hmmm…. then what’s everyone’s assumption on this one, which is blank backed, and on almost identical stock to that of my W517’s?

Thoughts anyone?

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Posted By: fkw

Yes thats what I would say.

95% of the Postcard cuts should be easy to spot.

Last year was a different story as I didnt own the postcard, and I really didnt think about it much. Before I picked up the postcard, I assumed many of the W517 Mini cards were cut from the postcard. But now looking at it more closely, they should be easy to spot by the "Post Card" marks on the back and the narrow to no borders. The largest border Ive seen is the O'Doul card Adam has, the border on right side is good sized. The Critz card if cut from that postcard would have 1/8" borders all the way around and a blank back, so it would look like a W517 Mini in every way.

I have now seen 4 of the postcards (3 different) and all that I know of have the "POST CARD" back.

If you have cards with at least 1/6" borders all the way around and are blank backed Id say there is almost a 100% chance they from the strip.

Anyone else have one of these postcards?

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Posted By: fkw

That Gehrig, if blank backed is 99.9% from the Mini strip. The only way it is cut from the postcard is if there are postcards with the players in different spots, or postcards with blank backs. None have been seen yet, but they are rare so you never know.

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Posted By: John

Thanks for the input Frank; I have had this card since I was a kid. I’ve always tossed between W517 mini and PC cut out. I’m still not 100% convinced it’s a mini W517, now looking at the PC on Adam’s page the borders on mine look pretty close.

Thin on left, thin at top and thick on right. The only thing that throws me is that there is no bottom border, but that also could be the way the person cut it from the PC. I would have to see the stock on the PC to really help me narrow it down.

Anyways thanks for your thoughts.

John

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Posted By: fkw

If The Gehrig was cut from the postcard it should have a back like this...

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Posted By: John

Good point I thought of that after I typed that, however are there any 4 in1’s that are plain exhibits and not PC’s? That use the same shots or are these shots only found on the PC’s?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

1933-1938 exhibit 4 in 1s are blank backed.

Which is as important a piece of information as a partial football score, such as Detroit 17.

Edited to add:

Being a bit of a thickhead, I did not see why only three exhibit cards should have images similar to w517 minis, I thought lots of others could exist. So, I checked the images maintained on the card pricer site. They had plenty, but by no stretch all of the exhibit cards available for viewing. I saw no images in the 1929 or 1931 sets which appeared applicable to the minis. The next available set of card images which they had was the 1935 exhibits. I similarly noted no images in any card position which appeared similar to what I know of the mini series.

But please recognize that this information is not believed to be reliable, in part because I am not familiar with many of the w517 mini images used. I do note that some, but not all differ from the standard w517s. Plus I do not even have a checklist for the minis. However, in the 1935 exhibits a different Gehrig picture is used than in the earlier sets.

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Posted By: fkw

BTW if anyone cares. the postcards are from 1932 not 1929, and the W517 is from 1931-32, and the Mini's are 1932.

The rare 4-in-1 postcards like the one above (3 different are known) are listed in the 2006 SCD Catalog as from "1929" (page 139). But as Adam noted on his webpage and the teams the players are listed with, they were issued sometime after April 1932.

Critz pictured with NY Giants....... traded to New York May 21, 1930
O'Doul pictured with Brooklyn....... traded to Brooklyn Oct. 14, 1930
Kamm pictured with Cleveland........ traded to Cleveland May 17, 1931
Shires pictured with Boston NL......... played with Boston only in 1932
Donohue pictured with Boston AL....... played with Boston AL only 4 games in 1932 (also mispelled "Donahue")

Now my last question, does anyone have W517 Mini's where these 5 players are listed with a different team that noted above???

Kamm W517 Chicago AL...... W517 Mini Cleveland AL
Shires W517 Chicago AL....... W517 Mini Boston NL (airbrushed to "Boston" on uniform).
Donohue W517 Cincinnati NL...... W517 Mini Boston AL
Critz W517 Cincinnati NL......... W517 Mini NY NL

So the true date of issue....
W517 1931-32 (4 cards have team changes between Oct.1930-32)
W517 Mini's 1932
Postcard 1932

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Posted By: fkw

Gilbert, these rare W517 Mini 4-in-1 Exhibit postcards stand out because they include players from multiple teams, while all the normal 4-in-1 Exhibits include players all from the same team.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well Frank, if there are only a few of each of these cards which exist, then the total possible cut up exhibits which could pass as w517 minis are those few.

But don't tell anybody - it doesn't appear to make sense to cut up a rare card in order to pretend to have a less rare card.

This is why I wanted to see if other exhibits could also be cut up to pretend that they are w517 minis. Some of the '29s have similar images, as do those from '31. I do not know about any after that date, but I will check Bobby's site to see if he has any scans of post '31 exhibits.

Or do you already know that this is a waste of my time?

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Posted By: fkw

The normal more common 4-in-1 Exhibit cards are often found cut up into 4 cards. I once owned a group of about 100. They are seen on eBay from time to time.

But the normal 4-in-1 Exhibit cards have a different caption, they are block style upper case print, while the W517 Mini's and the rare postcards have a hand written style upper/lower case print (they are miniature reproductions of the 1926-29 Postcard back Exhibits).


1929-30 4-in-1 cut.........1938 4-in-1 cut........W517 4-in-1 cut

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well Frank,

You have locked this one up. Thank you. This thread is a reference material for me.

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Posted By: Glenn

I believe these were my cards being discussed, so what's the verdict on these guys?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

If I've learned my lesson here, I don't think that anyone can pinpoint the set from which these originate; because there are no borders. However, since they have scripted names, it is not the more common exhibits.

Of course, this only applies to the Jackson. The others are w517 minis.

Two of each color - what is the chance of that?

Well Frank, please grade my homework.

I hope that I don't get the dunce cap again.

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Posted By: fkw

Either way those cards are fairly scarce.

Like we figured out above, the Jackson would have a blank back if cut from the known postcards, so that Jackson could be either way.

If cut from the postcard, the other cards should have parts of the postcard print on the back (unless the postcards are also found with completely blank backs ???).

The colors are consistant with the known colors of W517 Mini cards. If I owned them Id list them as W517 Minis with borders cut close. Ive owned a few like them and mine had blank backs as well including this Gehrig




Funny thing is I keep seeing the same players over and over.

Another question... Has anyone ever seen a Mini card of either Ruth pose, Foxx, Alexander, Hornsby, Ott, etc.?? I dont think all the cards in the normal sized W517's are found in the Mini form. We should try to start a checklist of know cards (postcard cuts or Mini).

This is what I have seen or know of...

Mickey Cochrane (catching pose) Phi. AL
Eddy Collins (Eddie) Phi. AL
Hughey Critz NY NL
Pete Donahue (Donohue) Boston AL
Lou Gehrig NY AL
Lefty Grove Phi. AL
Travis Jackson NY NL
Joe Judge Wash. AL
Willie Kamm Clev. AL
George Kelly Brooklyn NL
Bing Miller Phil. AL
Lefty O'Doul Brooklyn NL
Art Shires Boston NL
Dazzy Vance Brooklyn NL
Paul Waner Pitts. NL

15 different so far.

Can anyone add any to this list?

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Posted By: Glenn

Thanks. That's what I thought they were when I picked them up, but the other recent thread had me wondering. I haven't seen any that I can add to that list.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Edited to remove erroneous input.

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Posted By: fkw

Gilbert,

The Bottomley, Klein, Traynor and Wilson cards are not W517 Mini's

They are 1929 (E-Unc.) Leader Novelty Candy card. They are even rarer than the W517 Mini's and bring about 5X the $$.

I have looked through cardpricer.com's images a few times and they have helped me with reference, but I have seen at least 50 images that are misidentified, including many strip cards.

Frank

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yes, Leader Novelty and Uncle Jacks are on my "figure these out soon" list. But really, all three of these sets come across my desk quite infrequently.

Ted also shows a George Kelly which looks like the same portrait as the larger w517s.

Thanks for that caution.

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Posted By: fkw

Yes the Kelly is one of the Mini's, thanks. I updated the list, its now 15 different.

I dont think it will reach 20 so its obvious the W517 Mini set is less than half the size of the W517's

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Posted By: leon

Did I miss something here? None of these really look like Leader Novelties to me.....(here are a few I own for comparison)

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Leon, the cards you picture are all the rare Leader Novelty cards.

Last night we did some investigating into the W517 Mini's and the Exhibit Postcard with the same images.

Ive been seeing the same W517 Mini cards over and over and thought the checklist must be far shorter than the 54 cards found in the normal sized W517's.

I believe the checklist of W517 Mini's is close to complete at 15 different (list above).

by comparing the teams the players are shown with, We also figured out that the W517 Mini's are from 1932, and I believe the normal sized W517 cards were issued over a 2 year span 1931-32 (since there are 4 players with team change variations that point to 1932).

Maybe the NEW editor of the SCD Standard Catalog might want to update the info in the 2008 Catalog.

BTW who is the NEW Editor of the Standard Catalog???

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree Leon. The Leader Novelty which you have shown look entirely different from the w517 minis contained in this thread. I think that this is primarilly due to only portrait w517 minis being shown, while all of the Leader Novelty are action poses.

The cards do have similar color variations, both sets do not have much of a frame around the image, and for one not particularly observant, it is possible to miss the differences in the captions used.

Admittedly the cards may be different sizes, but that does not necessarilly come through in the scans.

All of the above is included for my own defense - because it is me who is guilty of this oversight. And I would not like others to think that I am a blithering idiot. (I do not blither).

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Posted By: fkw

The Leader Novelty cards (and also W553) use the exact same images and caption as the R316 Kashin Publication cards.

The W517 Mini's use the same images and caption (some teams are changed) as the 1926-29 Exhibit Supply Co. cards

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I do not believe that we are going to solve the W517 mini checklist because they are so hard to find. I can add to the W517 mini checklist the following:

Lefty O'Doul Brooklyn
Charlie Klein Philadelphia
Dazzy Vance Brooklyn

In terms of card stock, the W517 minis are printed on a coarser, darker, thinner chipboard than the exhibits. I've held them up together and compared.

It is easy to differentiate cuts of 4 on 1s from the 1930s from the W517 mini/4-on-1 PC back. The latter have handwritten identifying information; all of the 1930s exhibit issues have typeset information.

While the Gehrig configuration stated above is accurate, it is theoretically possible that the backs will be found with any number of partial or different configurations depending on the idiosyncracies of the printing run, including reversed direction postcard backs. I have some PC backed cards with the PC back printed very badly off center. The QC on these products wasn't great.

In terms of known 4 on 1's of the format matching W517 mini, I have the following confirmed (players listed clockwise from upper left quadrant):

Gehrig-Grove-Donahue-Cochrane
Judge-Waner-Kamm-Jackson
O'Doul-Vance-Shires-Kritz

Bear in mind that there are at least a few other 4 on 1's with boxers and baseball players combined. The fronts are differently captioned but they are out there. I think our peerless leader has one from a Verkman auction last year that was sold as a strip card.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I note that the partial postcard back shown above contains the statement "not to be used in exhibit machines". Is there additional evidence tying the script captioned 4 on 1s to ESCO? Or is the manufacturer of these script captioned cards disputable?

For example: does the posibility exist for these 4 on 1s to not be an Exhibit variation, but actually a (third) w517 variation?

Further, has a relationship between ESCO and w517 been eliminated as a possibility? It was not so long ago that such a relationship was postulated.