Jim O'Rourke hit .250 at age 54 !!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

HOF Jim O'Rourke hit .250 for the NY Giants in 1904 at the young old age of 54!!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/o'rouji01.shtml

Just an interesting tidbit to throw out to those people who are amazed at what Julio Franco is doing. And O'Rourke did it all without the help of steroids. The same cannot be said (with a straight face) about Franco.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Satchel Paige pitched 3 innings of 1 hit (shutout) ball at the age of 58.

Minnie Minoso got a hit at age 53 and he dragged a piece of lumber to the plate at 57 (making him the only player, that I know of, participate in a game in 5 different decades).

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Why does Minoso get credit for the record when O'Rourke was OLDER??

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Posted By: jay behrens

Technically, he did not appear in 5 decades. 1980 is part of 1970s.

And just to head off any agruements, the callendar is set up such that it dates things in this order: 3BCE, 2BCE, 1BCE, 1CE, 2CE, 3CE, etc. there is no zero year, so the counting doesn't start until 1 and the first decade ends with 10. This is also why we didn't offcially enter the 21st century until the year 2001.

Jim Kaat is one of the few people to actually play in 4 different decades. Ted Williams is NOT one of them.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Glenn

What are the current odds on Rickey Henderson to get a Major League at-bat in 2010? Not likely I guess. Minoso ruined it for everyone. 4 hits in 3 decades? Honestly, my grandma could do that if someone would sign her.

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Posted By: Glenn

Jay,

I think we're aware that the first year of the common era was 1, not 0, and so the 21st century began in 2001, not 2000; however, the 80's, 1980-1989, is A decade (it just doesn't exactly line up as the 199th decade) as is the period 1926-1935 or 1794-1803 or 1863-1872.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

tripled in a PCL game at age 59.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Not sure where you are getting 4 hits in 3 decades. Minoso had 249 hits in the 60s, 1 in the 70s and never got an at bat in the 80s.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

SABR Jay:

Anyway of seeing how old TO THE DAY Minoso and O'Rourke were when they got their hits??

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Posted By: jay behrens

Glen, that case, you set up any 10 year period as a decade. Counting the 1980s as 1980-89 is lazy and intelectually bankrupt.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I had to go to the SABR Retrosheet site to find that data. If no one else finds when I get back from bowling, I will look it up. This is also good reason to be a SABR member

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

By the way...

MINOSO only hit .125 at the age of 53...

while O'ROURKE hit .250 at age 54!!


So clearly O'Rourke is the BEST 50+ year old hitter to ever play in the Major Leagues.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Jay,being anal about stuff isnt a good reason to join SABR and if thats what they teach then i still want no part of it.I thought about joining it till everyone who sings its praises hides info from non-members and gloats about it in public.I'd rather pay money to sites like baseball-reference that dont try to hide stuff from you.Honestly,I'd love to click on a players name and its says"wouldnt you like to know his stats,pay money and ill share" that would be great.

Saying guys played in 4 decades is alot easier than saying,he played in the 60's,70's,80s and 90's which are 4 different recognized periods of time ending in -ties. If i told someone Ted Williams played in 4 different decades and they went into that little speech you went into id walk away from them whether they were technically and scientifically right or not.

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Posted By: Glenn

Hi Jay,

Let's not fight. My source, since you weren't sure what it was, was www.baseball-reference.com, generally accurate but presumably more prone to error than SABR. Here Minoso is listed as having gone 0-for-2 for 1980. In any case, I think we agree he had 0 hits in the 80's, 1 in the 70's, and 3 in the 40's.

A decade IS any ten year period, and 1980 IS part of the eighties. Honestly. I don't know what your sources are, but the defintions of both "decade" and "eighties" can be verified in the Oxford English Dictionary, Webster's, or American Heitage.

Not that it's germane, but I certainly am lazy. I do not, however, believe that I am or ever have been "intelectually" bankrupt, or intellectually bankrupt for that matter (sorry, couldn't resist). Neither are the editors of any of the aforementioned dictionaries.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

was that the Red Sox would win the World Series (before the playoffs were half over), everyone laughed..in fact, it may have been before the playoffs started...


Here 'tis, from the "search posts":

Boston to win Series, say 27.8% of 413 SABR members polled.
October 8 2004 at 7:16 PM
Julie (Login julievognar)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

26.4 picked S.L.; 12.8 picked N.Y. Most thought 6 or 7 games.

These pick %ages were followed by Huston, Anneheim, Minnesota, Atlanta and L.A. in that order.

Hey, that would be so great!

This message has been edited by julievognar on Oct 8, 2004 7:22 PM
This message has been edited by julievognar on Oct 8, 2004 7:20 PM

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you want another amazing accomplishment from an old player, Phil Niekro won 121 major league games after he turned 40! I bet that has never been accomplished by any other pitcher.

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Posted By: Jimi

...the fact that O'Rourke didn't start until he was 31 is pretty awesome!

Jimi

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Warren Spahn and Dazzy Vance were pretty darn good pitchers for "old timers."

Spahn won 75 games from the age of 40 on up, twice winning 20+ games and going 23 - 7 with a 2.60 ERA at age 42.

For all intents and purposes, Dazzy Vance's major league career didn't start until he was 31. He then proceeded to win 197 games and compile a 3.24 ERA.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

What about the opposite...

Which pitcher won his 170th game when he was 25 years old?

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

McGraw did his old pal O'Rourke a favor and let him catch the first game of a double-header on Sept. 21, 1904. It turns out that the game was the Pennant clincher for the Giants.

O'Rourke is also credited with the first base hit in the National League!

[Amos Rusie won his 197th game by age 25!]

Frank

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, now I am really puzzled.

O'Rourke is 54 years and 20 days old when he gets a hit in 1904.

Minoso is 53 years old when he gets a hit in the 1970's...

but MINOSO holds the record???

BALONEY!!!




O'Rourke is the MAN! We need the "vintage" guy to get his due!!

Look at that great moustache!!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

September 22, 1904: In the opener of a twinbill with the Reds, the Giants win, 7-5, behind Joe McGinnity. Their 100th win, it clinches the NL pennant for New York. In the final game of his 19-year career as an OF/C, future Hall of Famer Jim O'Rourke, 52, catches for Joe McGinnity. It is O'Rourke's first ML game since 1893 (Benton Stark writes that O'Rourke hit .358 in 1900, but it was not in OB) and is 1-for-4 and scores a run. He'll be elected to Cooperstown in 1945. The Reds come back in the nitecap to win, 7-3, in seven innings beating Hooks Wiltse.


THIS website has him as only being 52 at the time.

Maybe that is the problem.

Maybe www.baseball-reference.com has his birthyear wrong???

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

If they are wrong... so if the Hall of Fame:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/O'Rourke_Jim.htm

Everybody has him being born in 1850.

What does SABR say???????????

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Minnie didn't get a hit when he was 57... I think that someone blocked him from coming back in 1990 for a plate appearance (in the best interest of baseball)...

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Remarkably, for someone known for his longevity stats, he did not even come up till he was 25 and won his first game at 26.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Glen, I didn't think to look at the 40s. I assumed you were talking about 3 consecutive decades. I do not agree that 1980 is part of the 80s. It is wrong and I will not go along with something just becuase the general public is too lazy to conprehend how a calendar based decades work.

John, SABR can be anal like that about decade type records. Personally, I think records that are based on the happnestance of when you started career are kind of stupid. Records like that are neat factoids, but no records should based around playing in a decade of the 40s, 70s, etc. If you can use any ten year period, then that's perfectly fine.

There are still lots of incorrect records in the books. SABR works hard to get them corrected, but like any monolithic institution, baseball is slow to change records even when give all the eveidence to support it.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Glenn

Rest assured I have a devastatingly witty rejoinder, but I don't wish to drag the thread down any further with such nonsense. Jay, email me at gscheyd@hotmail.com, and we can continue the discussion off-the-board. For the record, and as I have always posted, the name is Glenn. There is a Glen on the forum, but I imagine he wants nothing to do with this.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Julio Franco is on steroids? That's news to me. (Said with a completely straight face)

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: identify7

We have PROOKIES and FROOKIES. Why shouldn't we have FRECORDS?

Joe Nuxhall is not the youngest rookie ever, Fred Chapman is. Satchel Paige was not the oldest rookie, Diomedes Olivo was. Jackie Robinson wasn't the first ex-Negro Leaguer in MLB, Izzy Leon was. The list goes on ...

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree.

O'Rourke holds the FRECORD for oldest major leaguer to hit safely in a game.

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Posted By: identify7

Is it O'Rourke who holds the FRECORD? Or is it Minoso, Glen's Grandma, Joe Nuxhall or Julio Franco?

And I too am not sure when the 80s were, but I know they made OJs then.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The HOF lists O'Rourke being born in 1850 in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

The 1860 census for Bridgeport, Connecticut has:

James O'Rourke, Age 10



Thus, the websites that list O'Rourke as being 52 when he got his hit in 190 are WRONG.

He was 54. He was older than Minoso.

He shall be vindicated!

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Posted By: identify7

He also got the first hit in the National League.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gil, I've never head the Izzy claim before. Can you please explain?

Glenn, I have no desire to carry this on in a private email since there is aboslutely nothing anyone can say that will change my stance on what a decade is unless the academic world changes what consitutes a decade.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: identify7

Excerpted from Negro League Baseball association site:




ISIDORO ‘IZZY’ LEON

Born: 1/4/1911 in Cruces, Las Villas, Cuba
Died: 7/25/2002 in Miami, Fla.
Pos: Pitcher/Outfield
Bats: R
Throws: R

The Cuban born Isidoro Leon pitched for the All Cubans team of 1945-46, then played as an outfielder with the Negro National League New York Cubans in 1948.

He did play in the (all-white at the time) majors for one season as a pitcher for the Philadelphia Phillies in 1945. In his one and only season, he appeared in 38.2 innings in 14 games, posting a 0-4 record. He died in Miami on July 25, 2002 at the age of 91.

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Posted By: Glenn

I am but one academic, but surely you are aware that the dictionaries are compiled and edited by professors and not by the vulgar masses. It's not that they've changed the definition of "decade", not in my lifetime anyway, as it is the same in my dictionaries from the 1960's, but that what you maintain the word means has never been its correct denotation.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Here is a link to the Census Page from 1860 that lists O'Rourke as being 10:

Cut and paste this to your address bar:

www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseballCard/images/1221Lg.jpg


Then enlarge it and then scroll down to his name... then scroll across to read his information.

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Posted By: identify7

Dictionary definitions are only suggested meanings. Merriam-Webster, nor the others, employ an enforcement branch. Actually, it is just the opposite. The dictionarians attempt to keep up with the changes implemented by a creative, free-thinking society.

Words are for fun, they are not laws imposed upon us by self-proclaimed authority hungry professors.

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Posted By: Glenn

Yes, but dictionaries employ usage panels, composed of many experts of their respective fields, vintage baseball included. Furthermore, even if this were not the case, I've never heard a single academician claim that a decade is "a ten year period beginning with a year ending in the numeral 1," rather they use it to mean



Honestly, I'm just curious what Jay's source of the academic meaning of the word is.

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Posted By: Glenn

Okay, I'm done posting in this thread. I promise. Anyone else who wants to discuss the issue with me can shoot me an email.

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Posted By: jay behrens

One last time and I won't post any more on this topic.

If you are going call a ten year span the decade of the 70s, 80s, etc, you cannot start at zero because of the way our calaendar is set up. As I pointed out before, the calendar goes from 2BCE, 1BCE, 1CE, 2CE... the first decade ends at 10CE.

saying that the 1980s runs from 1980-1989 is just plain lazy and wrong. Is it a decade? Yes. Is it the decade of the 1980s? NO!!!

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: identify7

Geeze! You two guys are serious!
Im sorry, I thought you were kidding.
I will post no more on this subject.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have informed the proper SABR folks about this news.

They agree and will make sure the record goes to O'Rourke.



Is there a SABR site for members where they have a long list of these records?

I am a member, but I can't find any such web page.

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Posted By: Cat

Since I was born in 1960, do I have to tell people I was born in the 50s?

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Posted By: identify7

Well Hal, the one that irks me (from a card collecting standpoint) is that Babe Phelps of the Dodgers, qualified for second place in batting average in the NL in 1936 with a .367 average.

Yet the HOF contends that Piazza's .362 average in 1997 is somehow the highest attained by a NL catcher.

Phelps appeared as a catcher in 98 of his 115 games that year.

I don't know who to yell at, but there is probably something that I am missing anyway. My calendar goes Jan, Feb ..., etc. not from 2BCE, 1BCE, 1CE, 2CE, etc. What religion is that?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Better yet...

Phelps appeared in 98 games as a catcher...

and only 1 as an Outfielder...

so the OTHER 16 game appearances in 1936 must have been PINCH HITTING appearances.



So in other words...

the ONLY position he really played in 1936 was catcher.



Granted, the web lists RAY BERRES as the "starting catcher" for the Dodgers that year...

but Berres only caught in 105 games to Phelps' 98...

so they must have SPLIT TIME pretty evenly.

Heck, Phelps had MORE at bats (319 to 267) than Berres.




I agree 100% that Phelps holds the distinction over Piazza...

but ONLY if Phelps had enough "at bats" in 1936 to officially qualify for the batting crown.

Did he??

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

"We use the terms BCE and CE. (Before Common Era, Common Era) to refer to the time period before Christ was born and after the birth of Christ--when we speak of countries to which the birth of Christ was not a central phenomenon."

Oh yeah, and some non-religious or anti-Christian people use the term any old time.


I sometimes cheat and use "BC" and "AD" because Mephistopheles is such a mouthful of Manhatten, Johnny.

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Posted By: identify7

Baseball Reference's leader boards credit him with
finishing second in the NL batting race in 1936.
And Baseball Library states: "The 6'2" 225-lb
lefthanded batter hit .367 in 1936, the record for
a catcher qualifying for the batting title.

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Posted By: identify7

Thanks Julie, but what happened to 0CE? Doesn't that year count?
Oh I get it - that is the same screw up as the BC/AD millenium thing.
Everyone celebrated a year early.

But if all of this is true, when does Cat officially qualify for Social Security?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Kinda funny...

I posted Minie hit in 5 different decades, I suppose I should have stated that he's the only player to hit in 5 consecutive 10 year blocks where the decade year marks were different (4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 were represented).

Minnie Minoso dragged his bat to the plate when he was 57 but didn't get a hit, he did however get a hit when he was 53 (younger than O'Rourke)...