I give up on grading

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Posted By: jay behrens

All I can say about these 2 cards I just got back from SGC is, WTF?!?!?! Elliot and number of other people saw these cards at the National. They are much nicer looking than the scans indicate, and certainly far better than the grades indicate.





Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I can see how the centering might have hurt the Clark, but what am I missing on the Manion? The image viewer on my work PC isn't worth a darn, but that still looks a heck of a lot nicer than FAIR.

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Posted By: david

i would guess there is a wrinkle that is not showing up. sgc has become very strick and hesitant to grade cards vg that have creasing or wrinkles, no matter how subtle

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Posted By: Josh K.

I agree that centering is the culprit with the clark - that is the downside of not having qualifiers such as OC (which, by the way, I cant stand). That looks no better than 80/20 centering, if that. Though the card looks great otherwise, if the centering doesnt justify the higher grade, it wont get it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you read SGC standards, you can get an 84 with the centering that card has. So why the 50? These cards were scrutinized under a loupe by several people before I submitted them. I had about a dozen cards I planning on submitting and ended up only submitting 4 because the other cards had minute flaws that missed on my original inspection.

I'll still slab my valuable cards to protect them from myself, but I've given up on submitting supposedly high grade cards. Not one of the cards I submitted graded higher than 50 and everyone thought they would all pull at least 80.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: dan mckee

No comment

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

It might be my computer or just the scan but it looks like the Manion use to have a piece of tape on the front over LEAGUE. If that's the case then that would explain the low grade. The centering and corners on the Clark appear to be the reason for the vg/ex grade although I could see it pulling an ex grade as well but not much higher. Stll nice cards for the grades escpecially the Manion.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...the grade that came back on the Manion is a perfect example of why we need responsible third party grading. If you had listed that card raw on ebay advertised in EX-MT or higher condition, you might have a very disappointed buyer (with better eyes, or at least higher standards, than you). While you may have looked at that card through a 10x loupe, you're missing something, be it creasing, wrinkles, paper loss, glue/paper stuck on it, a pinhole.... something. If you think it was a mistake, resubmit it for a reevaluation -- either by cracking it out, or in holder. SGC will give you an explanation, I am sure, one way or another.

Just a couple of anecdotes, from the two times I was confused about a grade I got (yes, in my 200 or so submission to PSA and SGC, only two confusions total). First, I submitted a VG condition T206 card of Miller to SGC. It came back a 10/1 Poor. I couldn't believe it. I was furious. What did I miss? Well, after closer inspection, I noticed that there was a piece of paper that had been glued onto the front of the player's jersey, as if it had been stuck upside down into a scrap book at one point and then carefully removed. I'm not sure why I missed it after countless observations, but I did. Had I sold that card on ebay without SGC's help, I would have duped some unsuspecting buyer. I might've had an angry client on my hands. SGC erases the doubt.

Second, I submitted a VG-EX Chance to PSA years ago (I don't submit cards to PSA because I no longer find them trustworthy or responsible) and it came back with an MK. For years I thought the MK was because of a little stain on the back of the card, and I could never understand why that got an MK, because it certainly wasn't an intentional mark. Then, quite literally years after I had gotten it back, I was examining the card under a 10x loupe for the millionth time and saw it -- a very fine pencil erasure (a number and/or a few letters written in pencil had been erased) that I had never seen before. That's where the MK came from and that's why it only crossed over to an SGC 40. Had I never seen that pencil erasure, I never would've understood grading. Again, if I had sold that card as VG-EX, I may have pissed off a buyer. SGC removes the doubt.

I guess my point is, when I'm buying vintage baseball cards of any value on ebay, they had better be graded by SGC or GAI (I will concede PSA is a real risk). Even the best sellers miss wrinkles and writing erasures. They aren't negligent or intentionally deceptive. But I trust SGC. Because when I bought my Chance, it wasn't graded and I thought I was getting a card without pencil erasures on it.

Finally, you can bash grading all you want, but the simple truth of the matter is it has made many more collectors than it has taken away. And, it has restored a sense of security and honesty into an industry that was frought with fraud and deception. Are there exceptions? Sure. Does PSA suck? Totally, and they have done a good job of restoring fear and uncertainty in today's collectors. But there is a 100% iron clad unreversible never going away (and I really do mean never) need for trustworthy third party grading. The internet transactions mandate this. It is a paradigm shift -- like horse drawn carriages to automobiles. Were there people who refused to give up their horse buggies for cars? Sure there were. Were they wrong that horse buggies were safer and more economical? Of course not. Do most people own cars today? Indeed.

I'll sign off with this metaphor: You are all free to stick with your horse drawn buggies, typewriters and rotary phones, but when you lash out at cars, personal computers and cell phones you kind of look senile to many of us.

Cars are a joke. Personal computers are a joke. Cell phones are a joke. MP3 players are a joke. Airplanes are a joke. The wheel is a joke.....

Paul (aka T206Collector)

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Posted By: Howie

I agree with the tape/stain/removal on the Manion. With that centering on Clark the net grade is reflects the card's grade/value. Generally speaking when you show cards to your friends they will tell you what they think you want to hear. When you send them off for grading you get the grader's honest opinion of the cards. Your opinion of the grades shows why professional grading can be helpful in the marketplace. I wouldn't want to buy the Clark advertised as NM and I wouldn't want to buy the Manion advertised at a higher grade and find out later it had tape removed.

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Posted By: John

Jay,

They have left me scratching my head a number of times as well. I also have had similar experiences with PSA. I have a '34 Goudey Waner that I thought would get a least a 4 and it came back as a 2 (no creases or marks, just slightly soft corners). On the other hand, I have a 1935 National Chicle Football Dutch Clark which appears to be well worn (rounded corners, a bit of surface scuffing, but no creases) that I expected to get a 2 or maybe even a 1. It came back as a 3. Again, there are too many factors to be considered (including different individuals doing the grading from instance to instance) when cards are graded. As objective as the grading companies would like us to believe that their standards are, slabbing will always be a subjective venture. Sorry about your luck. Re-submit?

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Posted By: John

Paul;

I hope you’re not comparing the advent of the automobile, airplane or personal computer to the advent of grading companies. Before the airplane it would take us a weeks or months to travel to certain destinations, I use to be able to buy nice un-altered cards before grading companies popped up.

Have grading companies helped new collectors out in some ways? Yes and in some ways no. Sure for collectors who knew nothing before I guess the added comfort of a grading company slab may make it seem safer. The other edge of that knife for all the amateur collectors who depend on their information coming from population charts and grading company BS, take real chances getting burned these are the same guys who buy common cards worth a few hundred dollars for thousands with little or no chance of re-sell. Why because we have created a whole new breed of collector, the collector who collects and educates them selves more on the plastic containers the cards come in more than the cards them selves.

I’m tired of bashing grading companies too, but I’m even more tired of hearing how they have saved the hobby, and made it such a safe and more pleasant place for the collector! I would have continued to buy cards and collect, regardless if grading companies were ever invented. I did it before they arrived and I’ll continue after they have gone.

Regards,

John

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Posted By: jay behrens

I seriously doubt anyone told me what I wanted to hear about these cards. As I mentioned, I had about a dozen cards with me, and I decided not to submit 8 of them for various reason. So it's not like everyone was feeding me pie int he sky observations. I knew both of these cards had a problem, i.e. centering and the glue on the front. But there is no way these cards should be carrying the grades they got. With the Clark, you could practically shave yourself, the corner are so sharp and the Manion isn't much worse in the corner department.

t206collector, tell you what, you get all your cards slabbed, and I'll buy every card you get back that grades a 20 or 50 that looks like these cards. Only catch is, I'm only gonna pay you according to the technical grade the cards got. I'd love to have a collection of cards that looked like these 2.

Jay



My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Grading should drop the numbers and just grade authentic/unaltered. This would solve alot of problems, still protect the online buyer from scams, and have true collectors stay in the hobby. Anyone paying $3K for a common T206, I don't care if it is in an 11 holder, needs their head examined.

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<I hope you’re not comparing the advent of the automobile, airplane or personal computer to the advent of grading companies.>>>

It's a paradigm shift, more than it is an efficiency improvement.

<<I use to be able to buy nice un-altered cards before grading companies popped up.>>

Grading companies brought a lot of people into the hobby, making your nice unaltered cards worth a lot more today. You can still buy nice un-altered cards. The only downside is cost, but that's high because of the competition.

<<population charts>>

I agree are an absolute waste -- a distraction at best, misleading advertising at worse.

<<guys who buy common cards worth a few hundred dollars for thousands with little or no chance of re-sell.>>

The flip value is still high in this area, and getting higher, isn't it? I do expect the bubble will burst at the high end, however.

<<Why because we have created a whole new breed of collector, the collector who collects and educates them selves more on the plastic containers the cards come in more than the cards them selves.>>

That is a negative offshoot. Eventually, I would expect that the plastic container collector will dig a bit deeper than the cases their cards are slabbed in.

<<I’m tired of bashing grading companies too, but I’m even more tired of hearing how they have saved the hobby, and made it such a safe and more pleasant place for the collector!>>

I think there is a fair balance to be drawn here. People who say that grading companies are a joke forget that they have made it safer and more pleasant for many collectors. Again, I admit that PSA and PRO have done a good job of fouling this up, too. But the SGC's and the GAI's are on to a good thing.

<<I would have continued to buy cards and collect, regardless if grading companies were ever invented. I did it before they arrived and I’ll continue after they have gone.>>

That's good. But the only way they're ever going anywhere is when people stop collecting cards. A better way of saying that is while we populate this good green earth we will be sharing it with good and bad grading companies. And I believe that the good ones will win out over the bad ones.

<<t206collector, tell you what, you get all your cards slabbed, and I'll buy every card you get back that grades a 20 or 50 that looks like these cards. Only catch is, I'm only gonna pay you according to the technical grade the cards got. I'd love to have a collection of cards that looked like these 2.>>

I don't buy or sell the slab. I buy and sell the card. Grading companies provide guidance along the way, that's all. I trust SGC and so far have never been burned by them. I keep one of every T206 card front. I once had two PSA graded Chief Benders (a 5 and a 4). I sold the 5 because I liked the 4 better. Happens all the time. But if I purchase a raw card advertised as EX-MT or better from you, and I find even the slightest fart of a wrinkle on it, you better be ready to send me a refund. You can buy all the SGC 20's you want with faint wrinkles, just don't delude yourself or others into thinking that card is better than VG.

<<Grading should drop the numbers and just grade authentic/unaltered. This would solve alot of problems, still protect the online buyer from scams, and have true collectors stay in the hobby. Anyone paying $3K for a common T206, I don't care if it is in an 11 holder, needs their head examined.>>

I basically agree with this, but I think the numbers provide guidance especially when the card's scan looks mint, but there's a stain, hole or wrinkle that can only be detected under close inspection. That's when the number tells you, "watch out... there's something here you won't see on first glance." It is like having an expert with you on a purchase of something expensive. It makes a ton of sense to me.

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Posted By: dan mckee

if you are collecting to fill a hole and not investing, who cares if there is a hidden stain or minute hole that you can only see with the hubble telescope? Yes I think grading is a joke but I do see the protection value for the online buyer as I have stated. I don't like the fact that the grading companies haven't tried to hire or consult with experts who have been in the field much longer than their graders. Case and point, the 3 1910 notebook cards I had returned as counterfeits from SGC. If you don't know, consult with an expert or hire one even if only parttime. Sorry, but I have a huge problem with this part of grading. Yes the young graders can see corners and creases and alterations much better than I, but they should also know the issues they are dealing with. Dan.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

The centering is about the same as the Rhoades T206 I sent them back. I thought (and told SGC) the grade should be a 30 b/c of 90/10 centering. They sent it back as a 40 (for those who don't know, it was in a 60 holder). So, I think an SGC 50 is very generous for the centering on that particular card.

As for the 20, glue on the front lowers a grade substantially, so I guess that one is technically graded correctly as well (though, it probably could have been a 30 with the eye appeal it has). However, it is one of those SGC 20's, like my Croft's Cocoa Cobb, that is very nice for the technical grade!

Personally, I believe SGC is far more lenient on grading these days than they have been in the past.

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Posted By: T206Collector

The more expensive the expert will be to hire. And, since the issue is rare, there will be very few submissions, so it becomes cost prohibitive. You could keep someone on staff as an independent contractor for piecemeal work, I suppose. And, I guess I thought that grading companies did that sort of thing. At least, I think I've read that they do. And if they don't, I agree that they should.

Dan, you submitted those notebooks to SGC, but you were already comfortable in the knowledge that they were authentic, and you do not like numbers on slabs but would prefer that they just authenticate cards, then why did you submit these notebooks to SGC in the first place? It's none of my business, but it sounds a tad hypocritical.

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Posted By: DJ

I agree whole heartedly with what many of you have said and your concerns. Being "old school", I at first rejected the idea of grading my cards but I lightened up over the years as my personal views wouldn't matter and the hobby would live on. There are still a lot of people who know nothing of eBay and would rather utilize the want ads. I don't want to be like that.

Would I prefer the old days? Yes! Grading is a necessary evil and does make collecting easier for the novices and dealing without being able to view the card. Today we depend so much on scans that even a bad scan can add reassurance to the potential buyer.

The analogy is: eBay has made the baseball card show a dinosaur as graded cards and the population report has made the price guide a dinosaur.

Would I ever pay $7K for a PSA9 of a T206 common? Hell No!

Would I pay $500 for an n172 John Ward that is visually appealing but has an ever so small wrinkle and corner pinhole that has been graded a 40 because of this? Hell Yes!

I will leave this transmission with the philosophical (sp?) of the 1980's Tv Show "Facts Of Life":

You take the good, you take the bad,
you take them both and there you have
The facts of life, the facts of life.

Also, if you want to see a documentary on the PSA Grading process, check out the link:

http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml

DJ

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Posted By: dan mckee

I submitted the notebook cards for the simple reason that people are paying more for slabbed cards. My keeper collection has 1 slabbed card in it and my for sale stuff is about 50% slabbed. As hypo as it may seem, since people will pay more for slabbed, heck, I slab crap I am selling. And just an authentic/unaltered would be fine for me for everything I submit. Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I would like to add that I do not care what is on front of that Goudey on the left, that card is much better than fair.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Old school, yes that Manion is much better than fair. However, the grading companies have established what are intended to be objective standards. If their standards significanly lower a grade for tape stain and you submit to them, you have to be prepared to accept a grade based on those standards. Its not much different than a nice front with paperloss on the back - the paperloss is a killer even though the card looks great. Here is the perfect example (this is also posted in the Johnson thread by the way). I have absolutely no argument with the technical grade this rec'd - even though its a much nicer looking card than the grade would indicate.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Sorry, call me whatever you like, that grade on your Johnson is ridiculous.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...is a good analogy, indeed. I would like to state that it is very easy to keep a card crease free and with sharp corners for 100 years if you glue it into a scrap book. In a sense, it's cheating. So, while it maintains the beauty of a card's front, some of us like to have the whole card's condition be maintained. That is what truly makes a rare vintage card.

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Posted By: MW

Jay,

How much glue is on the front of the Manion?

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Posted By: dan mckee

really? A rare vintage card is a card that there isn't many of in ANY condition. A true collector wouldn't care in my opinion. Do you want the card or only the card in perfect condition? I guess I am just not catching on with the current idea.

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Posted By: MW

T206collector,

Good point. While SGC's treatment of back damage may be seen as too severe by some, take a look at other antiques and collectibles as a point of reference. Generally speaking, when an item is "incomplete" (i.e., something is missing) the value (and grade) are substantially lower. In the same way that an 18th century antique desk is worth less (and graded much lower) if each of the legs have had 1" sawed off or if a mural has been removed from the surface, an early 20th century baseball card is worth less (and graded much lower) if there is paper loss on the reverse side.

(I should note that exceptions sometimes occur if an item is extremely rare or unique).

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Posted By: T206Collector

Are you serious? Or are you just being argumentative. This is not ground-breaking news here. Condition drives value because of scarcity.

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Posted By: DeanH3

All 3 grading companies hammer cards with glue or paper loss. GAI hammered my Cobb that has glue/paste residue on the back that is virtually invisible unless you tilt the card against a light. Still then almost impossible to see. BTW I paid alot for this card and I have no regrets.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I am not just entering this hobby. I purchased my first Goudey card when I was 16 in 1989 and have been a regular purchaser of T206 cards since 1997. When my friends and I were trading 1987 Topps cards of Pete Incaviglia for 1987 Topps cards of Kal Daniels, we understood that cards with bubble gum stains on the reverse were not worth as much as ones with clean backs. It was pretty basic stuff and, in my opinion, continues to be.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Dean,

Ive been looking for a low grade, but nice looking green cobb for awhile - that is a freakin beaut. and I too would take that in a second regardless of the grade.

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Posted By: John

Since were cutting and pasting…

“The more expensive the expert will be to hire. And, since the issue is rare, there will be very few submissions, so it becomes cost prohibitive.”

At between $5-10 a card to grade and $50 a card for on site grading, I really don’t feel that its that cost prohibitive to have someone who knows what their doing. Labeling something as fake when you have no idea of what you are doing takes all creditability away. I was always taught if you don’t know the answer say you don’t know, don’t make things up. They should have returned Dan’s cards with a note that said we don’t know enough about these to authenticate them. This also raises the question if they missed this one what makes me think that they didn’t miss the trim on the NRMT Ty Cobb I’m about to buy?

“I think there is a fair balance to be drawn here. People who say that grading companies are a joke forget that they have made it safer and more pleasant for many collectors. Again, I admit that PSA and PRO have done a good job of fouling this up, too. But the SGC's and the GAI's are on to a good thing.”

Ok but another guy uses this same sentence but switches it around to say that SGC and GAI are jokes and PSA is on the ball. Another guy feels GAI is the only way to go. Well looks like were right back to subjectivity, which is what we had before grading companies, so, what have they solved? Saying one company is more trust worthy than the other is scary as hell to me! We used to do that with dealers and sellers, we would say “Blank” grades tough and “Blank” over grades etc. Which was fine with me, over time you knew who to trust and who to inspect closely. But it seems now we have replaced “Blank” with a three-letter abbreviation. The problem here is the card from “Blank” was a lot cheaper than the mistake or over graded card from “PSA” “SGC” etc.

“Grading companies brought a lot of people into the hobby, making your nice unaltered cards worth a lot more today. You can still buy nice un-altered cards. The only downside is cost, but that's high because of the competition.”

I’ll be the first to go on record that I would agree with you to a point. I’ll also say that many of my cards are worth too much in my opinion. There is just no need for some of the prices these cards are pulling, is it because of rarity? (On some cards sure) Is it because of supply & demand? (Once again on some cards) The main reason for these prices is the influx of un-educated collectors and grading company hype. Collectors who know very little about the items they are collecting who are chasing pop reports (which are pointless) or are buying into the highest ever graded hype. There are a whole new breed of collectors who are only interested in the price realized and bragging rights regarding value/grade of a card (Adam J. Morine), and this is driving the regular collectors out of the hobby, and will have a very negative effect sooner or later.

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Posted By: MW

I was thinking of posting something on this topic previously but I no longer thought it was relevant once the thread died.

I agree with SGC's analysis of Dan's cards as "counterfeit". To me, a counterfeit card isn't just one that is laser copied and pasted to a piece of card board. I believe the word "counterfeit" can also refer to a scrap of paper that was never meant to be collected or traded as a baseball card. In this way, the word counterfeit should not be limited to that which is merely "reprinted" or "fake" or "fraudulent". I think it can also mean that which would be deceptive -- seen as a legitimate baseball card -- if professionally graded and encapsulated. In my mind and using a definition that is very much within the bounds of reason, there is no question that Dan's cards were "counterfeit" in the sense that they were not legitimate or authentic baseball cards.

Could SGC have come up with a better word to describe what Dan submitted? Sure. But I don't think the word "counterfeit" is unsuitable or problematic when seen from a context of what is a real baseball card and what is not.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Absolutely. But the idea is that the grading company doesn't (or at least shouldn't) have a vested interest in the ultimate sale of the card. Dealers who grade the cards they sell have an inherent conflict of interest. Third party grading is much more reliable. And of course we'll have to find graders that are trustworthy. Heck, I started with PSA, and then listened to the horror stories and bought some PSA graded cards with obvious flaws that did not factor into the grade. I don't buy PSA cards any more if I can help it. And if I do, they get crossed over to SGC so fast it would make your head spin.

BUT... and I have no qualms about this... I realize that in five years from now the SGC name might mean fraud/dishonesty/etc. And if that's the case, I will have to pony up some significant cash to cross my collection over into a company that is trustworthy. The alternative would be to establish through SGC serial numbers that my cards were graded at a time when SGC was at it's prime. That is, if I were going to sell them. I could always keep them, content in the knowledge that they were graded by the best at the time of grading. And, to me, that's all that matters.

Finally, people competing to fill out set registries is a short term boon that will burst, I agree. My best example of that is a T206 Mathewson portrait in PSA 6 condition. I saw one sell on ebay two years ago for $3,500. I was thrilled because I own one too in that condition. But lately, the prices of PSA 6/SGC 80 Matty portraits has been a lot closer to $1,500 than $3,500. Trends come and go, so do collectors, but card grading is not a trend ....it's a paradigm shift, and it's here to stay.

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Posted By: John

Interesting take MW. But a lot of grading companies grade or authenticate items that aren’t collected in the traditional way that baseball cards were. What would be your take on Scrapps, Silks, Stamps, Cabinets, Premiums or Autographs?

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Posted By: John

Paul;

I here you and you make some valid points, I guess I’m just of the school of thought that I would rather spend the thousands of dollars that it would take to get someone’s opinion that my cards are ok, and buy that Magie I’ve been needing for years. The Magie would bring me much more happiness than knowing I had the 14th highest graded example of a card. And dare I say make my collection more valuable in the long run vs. having all my cards in little plastic holders.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yes I am serious. And that is my point. You started in the late 80s when the hobby was booming. You are a newbe to me. In the late 60s and 70s, we collected to fill sets. The value didn't come in to play near as much. You are driven by value, I collected to fill in the number I was missing. You are not wrong, just different. Yes, I am very serious Mr. T206collector.

MW, that is incredible. How can you say those notebooks were not issued in that format so that kids could cut off the players and collect them? Counterfeit means fake, reprinted, bogus to most people I know. Of course I hang with people like myself, uneducated.

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Posted By: MW

John,

Dan submitted his notebook cover cutouts to be graded as baseball cards, not as Scrapps, Silks, Stamps, Cabinets, or Premiums.

In the same way that Roy Huff's Spalding and Whitman paper scraps are "counterfeit baseball cards" so too are Dan's notebook cover cutouts.

The issue isn't whether or not Dan's items were legitimate or real (they were). It was whether or not they were legitimate or real baseball cards (they were not). The label counterfeit, while exclusive when applied in a limited way, is appropriate in its proper, baseball-card-specific context.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Holy sh$t Mike, I think you gave me a headache. You know Mike, your point would make more sense if that was why they said they were counterfeit. But when I referenced them in the standard catalog, they apologized and gave me a $24 credit. Dave are you reading this again??

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Posted By: MW

"Counterfeit means fake, reprinted, bogus to most people I know."

Dan,

In a general sense, I agree. But when applied specifically to submissions to a company that grades baseball cards, it can also mean "deceptive, simulated or feigned." An item need not be made (or cut out) with an intent to defraud in order to be counterfeit.

I would also note that not everything that has a baseball player's picture on it is suitable for grading, although it may be suitable for collecting or scrapbooking. SGC's grading standards are developed, in part, to protect the consumer. If an item is not a baseball card then it should not be graded as such.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Mike, I have no problem with them not grading them, my problem is with the why they didn't grade them. I was the first to state that the items shouldn't have been cataloged. But they are and no matter how you say it, they are not counterfeits which means fakes of an original item to me. Dan.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Dan,

Didn't you talk to Sean about your issue at the National or while you were setting up your ad in the magazine? If not, please do so.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Sean who? I spoke to Dave Forman and Scott. Dan

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Posted By: MW

"You know Mike, your point would make more sense if that was why they said they were counterfeit. But when I referenced them in the standard catalog, they apologized and gave me a $24 credit."

Dan,

OK. I'm glad everything worked out. But I don't think you're giving the graders enough credit. Granted, you have some very good reasons to be anti-grading just as I have some valid reasons to favor it. Given the amount of material they've seen, I'm quite confident SGC's graders can distinguish between something that is period and something that is not. Unless you spoke directly with Bob and Scott I don't think it's fair to presume what they were thinking as they examined each item.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I spoke directly with Scott and they didn't think it was period Mike. Sorry, you won't sell me on this one. Plus they are cataloged in the Standard Catalog. A professional grader of vintage cards should know that book in my opinion. I am by no means upset by how SGC handles my items and problems. They are wonderful people to deal with and I have known Dave forever. I am just making a point, a weak part of professional grading in my opinion. The pro's should know what they are looking at. Dan.

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Posted By: MW

Dan,

Is it the cut-out player pictures that are catalogued or the entire notebook?

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Posted By: dan mckee

The individual players are cataloged and I personally do not agree with that. I have always told people they were from a notebook but who listens to me?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Hate to get in the middle of the battle over symantics but here is a link from SGC's page on Explantion of Rejections. SGC could have rejected Dan's items coded as NO, which means Cannot/Do Not Grade. Based on that option available to SGC, it would appear they felt the items were not legit at the time of submission. http://www.sgccard.com/default.asp?PageID=2 Clearly SGC, as does GAI and PSA, distinguish between "questionable authenticity" and an "inability to grade."

With all of that said, I feel that SGC does a remarkable job.

Greg

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Posted By: MW

Dan,

I don't agree with that either. If period player pictures cut from a notebook cover can be catalogued then why can't player photos cut from a Spalding baseball guide also be catalogued?

Also, I had no idea that Bob told you he didn't think the items were period.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Bob? Scott the grader told me they looked like the laser fakes that scammers are doing. I told him I think I would have known better. They do favor those laser copies but I still must make my points here. Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

Dan,

Sorry, I meant Scott, not Bob.