T206 Red Hindu on eBay

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Posted By: Andy

Hello,

I posted back in Dec. about a red Hindu I found while "antiquing". Well, after buying an E90-1 Jackson and other cards, I am going to sell off a few cards. I will be listing a few other T206 cards Monday after the TriStar show in Houston. 3 Carolina Brights and an Elberfeld, Wash. Portrait.
I thought someone here might be interested in the Hindu.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5158333399&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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Posted By: barrysloate

Nice card -should do great. I once had a green Cobb with a red hindu back. Of the over ten thousand T206's I've handled, I still regard it as my favorite front-back combination. Good luck.

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Posted By: Andy

Back around 1993-94 I sold a red back. Cobb with a Carolina Brights back. Boy, I miss that card. This is only the second Red Hindu I've had. This is one of the best "discoveries" I've made in cards. Card doesn't fit into my current collection, so I'll part with it to help pay for other cards.

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Posted By: Robert A

green back w/ a red hindu sounds great.
I wonder where that little guy's hiding these days?
robert a

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Barry,

That's not possible.... Cobb Green background is only available with the regular brown Hindu back. I have seen to rebacked Green Cobb's with Red Hindu backs over the last 5 years, but they were NOT authentic.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Andy

Are there any of the 4 different Cobbs with red Hindu backs?

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Yes, Bat Off and Red background.

Thanks Brian

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Posted By: Andy

Rebacking seems to be a growing problem. I remember a while back a Cobb Drum back that was rebacked. It found it's way into a graded holder.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Guess what- it was real. It came from an old time collection. I sold it to a collector from Cleveland who reconsigned it to me when he got out of the hobby. I then sold it to someone who frequents this board, and might possibly still have it. But for reasons of confidentiality I'll let him step forward if he so chooses. I've been in this hobby a very long time and have handled as many vintage cards as anyone. Take it from me, it exists. If you are working on a database of front-back combinations, you have a new one to add to your list.

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Actually Andy,
Several rebacked cards have found there way into holders. SGC graded a Matty Portrait with Red Hindu, but they re purchased the card and handled the issue immediately. Beckett has also graded at least 1 re backed card, and has so far refused to fix there mistake. And of course Pro has graded quite a few ........


Be well Brian

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Posted By: BRIANKW

No offense Barry,

But I'll believe it when I see it..........


Be well Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just out of curiosity, why do you think it's impossible? I sold it for the second time in 1997, so it has perhaps been off the market for that long. If it's the only one that survived, then only me and the few owners of the card would know about it. I still have a copy of my SCD ad where I listed it. It was purchased and gladly accepted by a knowledgable collector. If he thought it was fake, I would have heard from him about it. I hope he reads this and steps forward and corroborates my story. I think I would have recognized if it was rebacked; however, there were no grading services then, so I am willing to make a small concession that we all could have been wrong. That said, I think it was real and it does exist.Just a professional opinion.

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Barry
The Cobb with the Green background was only issued in the 150 and 350 series when only the Brown Hindu back was available. To date no pose found with the Brown Hindu has been found with a Red Hindu. So until I see the card I will remain unconvinced.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Art M.

I am familiar with the Cobb, green background with Hindu red back once owned by Barry Sloate. I tracked this card back to Barry, but have been unable to actually find the current owner of the card. It traced from Barry to a familiar dealer (JS) to a collector in Alabama who ended up in prison.
It is extremely unlikely that this card is "as issued". The Cobb, green was no longer being printed when the Hindu red backs came into being (probably early in 1911).

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Art,
The big borders arrived today.... Thanks for the fast turn around.

Talk to you soon. Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Art,
You do know who bought it from me; I was not aware he sold it to someone who went to prison ( he didn't go to prison for owning a green Cobb with red hindu back, I hope). If everyone who studies front-back combinations tells me it couldn't be real, then I will be openminded and admit I was fooled too. It was undetectable and to this day I had no idea. I once had a Lajoie batting with a Uzit back; I guess I'll have to consider it my new number one. Truthfully, I'm shocked. As I said I sold it twice and any alteration was entirely undetectable, and no one ever asked for a refund. I am stunned, but I know there are collectors out there who know the backs better than I do, so I'm man enough to admit my error ( are you absolutely sure it wasn't real?).

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Barry,

The Lajoie with Bat Uzit is good......... I know of 2 1 in an SGC 40 holder, and the other is un graded. Brian

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Posted By: Robert

When I read the the first post, I didn't even think about it until I opened the post up again. The green cobb is "impossible" with a red hindu. I've never seen a t206 example that carries the brown hindu also carry a red hindu.
robert a

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's a real disappointment to me, but I accept that I was wrong because everyone who contributed seemed to know more about the hindu backs than I did. The Lajoie Uzit I had looked NR MT but had a light crease; that is probably the SGC-40. But I feel bad about the Cobb. It looked so good it passed everyone's detection, but clearly something was not right about it. Does anybody know where it is now?

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Posted By: Andy

A have read where there are 35 to 40 different players with Red Hindu backs. I know some of them. Is there a list somewhere of possible front/back combos?

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Barry,

The graders at SGC were fooled by the Mathewson/Red Hindu, as well as several seasoned collectors, so It can happen to anyone. The "card artist" are still out there, but the Internet has helped collectors exchange information at such a fast rate, that the altered or faked cards are weeded out much faster. I would love to see the card, but I don't want to go to jail..... Be well Brian

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Andy,
There are 73 subjects available first in the 350 series and then again in the 460 series. And there are 39 subjects who are only available in the 460 series, all 112 subjects are "available" with Red Hindu backs.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Mine and in a PSA 2 holder - it has two top corner creases - don't know how it was graded VG - it is only GD (at least to me - not to SGC of course). Agreeing with the others - there is no possible way that the Cobb Green Portrait or Bat On can be found with a Red Hindu back - only brown on both of those.

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Posted By: Robert A

Andy.
If your interested in specifics, there have been some informative posts discussed on this board in the recent past. search red hindu. Collectors shared which examples they own or have owned.

Barry, I'm positive I saw a green portrait red hindu on ebay and I believe it was in a PRO holder. Not sure if this was one of the few that Brian has seen in the past, but I think it's probably the same card that keeps popping up again.
robert a.

And by the way andy: if it wasn't clear, the rule to go by is any card that doesn't have a brown hindu possibility has a red hindu possibility.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

PRO isn't a grading service, BTW; it is a chop-shop.

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Posted By: pete

I love this place!!!!!!! And I love my 3 red hindu cards:

Chase black cap throwing vg-ex w mark on back
M. Brown chicago on shirt throwing vg-ex w mark on back
crandall, ny nat'l portrait vg-ex

I thought I heard a christy mathewson card was found with both hindu backs...was one a fake?

Pete in MN

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Posted By: MW

"The graders at SGC were fooled by the Mathewson/Red Hindu, as well as several seasoned collectors, so It can happen to anyone."


Brian,

I was the person who purchased and removed the fake T206 Mathewson/Red Hindu from the market. In my opinion, it was not a particularly good fake; I've seen counterfeit 1986-87 Fleer Michael Jordan rookies that were more convincing. I think the only reason it fooled some grading companies was because it was in low enough grade that they did not perform a careful enough examination (not that that's a reasonable excuse). In light of other recent front/back creations, I no longer see this as a problem since seasoned graders now know what to look for.

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Posted By: tbob

too bad it wasn't the Honus

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

PSA graded it a NM 7!!!!!!!!! Then, it was sent to SGC and they graded it a 50. I believe you are correct about prefering SGC over PSA, at least grade wise - can't believe they both thought it was real however. But, we all make mistakes along the way and have to learn from them - nobody is perfect!

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Posted By: MW

Scott,

I didn't realize PSA had graded it that high. Oh well.

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Anonymous

Yes, yes, I confess. It was me to whom Barry sold the green Cobby with the Red Hindu back and, like Barry, thought it was the real deal. I did sell it to a deep pockets collector about 6 months after I got it from Barry. Obviously, I thought it was legit or would not have passed it along. I don't know the whereabouts of the card at present. It could very well still be with the same gentleman who encountered some legal difficulties shortly thereafter. Art M., when doing research on his book on T206's (and where is that book, Art?), asked me about Cobb cards with different backs and the story came to light. That is all I know, I swear. Now please take the spot light out of my eyes.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, I remember the day you bought it, and I certainly apologize. I didn't fathom such a thing was even possible. But I would like to add that last night's discussion of red hindu backs was network54 working at its very best. The knowledge that many of you have acquired over years of hard work is most impressive, and even though I have been involved in the hobby since 1982, it's never too late to learn something new, and last night was one of those times. I thank everyone who contributed to the thread.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

You are are great guy and everybody makes mistakes. I know the Matty Port. fooled several veterans at the time it came out, including two grading companies. To tell you the truth, I would not have known better about either the Matty or Cobb, had I not collected rare backs for a few years and knew of the front/back combinations from the different series. I still consider you an expert and one of the few honest dealers around - and a good guy!

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Posted By: BillL

Neat how things come together every once in a while -
reading about red Hindu's and looking at lot#14 in the new Huggins & Scott catalog - T206 Hugh Duffy, PSA 3, Red Hindu back.

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Posted By: Scott Bob

The following pages talk about the Matt/Red Hindu grading error

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_4.html
http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_23.html

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Posted By: BCD

heroes of the diligent for helping all of us have to really do the research!