A few Slabbing questions few of you want to see answered:

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

1. Do the grading companies have the technology to detect re-coloring, trimming, glueing, erasures, bleaching?
2. If so, do they ever use this technology?
3. If so, what criteria are used before "breaking out" a detection device other than the human eyeball?

The lack of response to previous posting of the above questions leads me to believe that there are more than a few dirty fingers in the slabbing pie...and that most board members feel it's in their best interest to keep quite about their thoughts...because if the answer to either of the first two questions (or sub-questions) is "No"...well, you figure it out.

Aren't any of you the least bit curious as to whether or not the slabbed cards you own have been tampered with? How about the ones you are about to buy?

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I have wondered but don't know what techniques/technology PSA, SGC, SGC or GAI have or use. I don't even know what scientific techniques (beyond human eyes/personal experience) they have or use to determine if a card is authentic or reprint. I can't critique what they do, because I don't know what they do.

It's a comment on those collectors who claim the absolute reliability of a particular grader, but both can't (don't know how to) make a judgement on their own and have no idea how their favorite grader comes to a judgement.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

What "reasonable" technology exists for detecting each alteration type?

I read in one of Lipset's newsletters that corners could be built up on t206's and '33 Goudeys, using material from other cards, in such a way as to be undetectable...which makes me wonder, what can black lights actually help detect? Glue? if so, what types? I'm certain that all of these questions have answers. If board members responses, like mine and yours, is "I don't know", that's still good information to have.

[Archive]

Posted By: HW

Scott,

I believe the Lipset article that you spoke about had to do with a restorer named Tom Faith. He used to mark his cards on the reverse with a dot in one of the corners. I believe that Lipset auctioned off some of these cards at one time. The restoration work was totally disclosed.

I have seen some of these cards in person and they are fairly easy to tell to the trained eye. They look very good, but under close inspection it is fairly obvious. The easiest way to tell on the cards that I saw was to look at the edges. The consistency or texture of the edges would change dramatically toward the corner.

I think that UV lights pick up certain types of restoration, but not all.

I hope that all of you have a happy and safe New Year.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve k

PSA, the largest of the grading companies, seems to keep their grading procedures as secretive as the Manhattan Project. PSA, a few months ago, made a five minute video about their grading operations which really showed almost absolutely nothing. The top three grading companies are good at authentication - they get that right which is of the utmost importance. As for the rest, I use their grading as a guideline, and for the most part it is a good guideline, but as has been stated many times, "buy the card not the holder." Maybe one of the "leaders" of these grading companies will see your post and step forward and answer some of your questions.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Added ink, paper, glue and such on a trading is ordinarilly not difficult to detect if the examiner is not in a rush.

There are two simple yet effective naked eye techniques that a collector can use. The first is to closely examine the suface by holding the card at nearing 180 degree angles to a good light so you can observe the gloss and surface texture. Added ink and other stuff will often show up . The second is to hold the card up to a bright light and see how the light shines through. Built up corners and such will often be revealed this way, as the built up areas will be brighter or darker than the rest of the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

It seems to me the subject of grading services, their advantages, and limitations, at least in a general sense (as opposed to questions about specific cards which always make for interesting discussion) has been beaten to death. Those people with enough expertise to make their own judgments rightly do not rely on them and may even have contempt for them and the dealers who use them -- and perhaps some jealousy as well. For the average collector without the sophistication to make those judgments (such as myself), particularly those who buy mostly over the internet, third party grading (even if far from perfect) has significant advantages. Does that mean I am a sheep? Maybe it does, I don't know. I stay away from high grade pre-war because I suspect the most problems are there, and try to use what judgment I do possess as to the rest.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I have personally been in the "Vault" of GAI. Everything is done by eye there. Don't know if they had their eyes checked lately.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Scott, those are good questions. I don't have any answers.

I have a few other questions that have nothing to do with the way cards are graded but they are related to grading:

Are the graders paid hourly or by piece?
How many cards does an average grader review in an hour (or day)?
What type of quality controls are in place at these grading services?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Judge Dred:

I think I can answer those. Graders are paid hourly at GAI. They do about 10-20 an hour. They ask each other when stuck on certain items. GAI employs 10 people at most.

I'm considered one of their outside experts when it comes to T206 boxes.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I tend to beleive that the good graders serve as educated opinions on cards. If a collector wants and is willing to pay a few bucks for such a second opinion on a card he is about to buy or sell, I see nothing wrong with that. I might even say that's a prudent move, as, in general, I beleive getting second opinions is wise ... This is decidedly different from collectors who take a fundamentalist view of a grader, beleiving that something is correct simply because the grader printed it on a label.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

GAI's vault is the size of a small warehouse. They authenicate all kinds of stuff. Memorabilia, non-sports, unopened packs, etc. (Perhaps they take on too much stuff, is why they screw up so much) My jaw was to the ground when I got to go in there. Each employee has their own cubicle/desk, and each authenicate different things.

I saw many T206's, tobacco cards, etc. sitting on tables waiting to be graded. The guy that does T206 boxes had about 10 waiting to be graded. Been in there 3 times now.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

>

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

While this does not directly answer the questions posed above, having had the ability to go to GAI, get to know Baker and the graders has provided me with a great deal of confidence in their ability as a grading company. I have had similar experiences with SGC.

I place that confidence in both of these organizations and trust they will do their best to determine by whatever means available, to accurately authenticate and grade cards that are submitted to them. When I submit or buy cards graded by SGC or GAI I do so knowing the level of competency of the people who graded the cards.

If SGC is anything like GAI, I suspect they rely heavily on the use of their senses—sight, touch and smell and only once something appears suspicious will it undergo further scrutiny of a black light, etc. When you have handled as many cards (altered and original) as these guys have, provided proper time has been given to a card, there is much that is detectable under halogen light and an occasional use of a loupe.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I have free access to a digital movie camera, and, if it can be done practically and well, will make little instructional and informational movies for my website. This is something I had wanted to do for a while, but never had the means.

[Archive]

Posted By: John Spencer

Once during the Merkle era, I was invited into the SGC booth during a Ft. Washington show to see first-hand how they grade, at least on site. It seemed that they really had 3 main tools to evaluate authenticity, possible restoration and establish a grade; first, the eye and experience of the grader, next, a 25X microscope and finally a black light. Of course, their practices may have changed with new generations at the helm. As far as PSA and GAI are concerned, I really have nothing to contribute.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

I'm guessing the current slabbing scenario would be: the grader takes a look at an item and if there is no reason to suspect monkey-business (low value card, etc.) they rely on their own "human eye-related" skills and training.

But let's say a t206 Eddie Plank in vg condition arrives in the mail - is the human eye enough? I would think that for such a card the magnifier and black light would be an automatic. But is it? What conditions have to exist for the black light/etc. to be brought out?

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

i would think the bong and some early pink floyd might make one bring out the black light