T205 set

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Posted By: Bryan

I'm curious to know if anyone out there has completed the T205 set. I have a couple and just love the design. Any advice for someone wishing to start the set? Obviously, some cards will be near impossible to find - for example, the no stats Hoblitzell card. How long did it take to comeplete - good stories about it - anything would be helpful.
Thanks

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Posted By: J Levine

I have been working on this set for many years...I am currently nine cards short (2 of the Hobbys, Collins, Fisher, a few others)...this is a fascinating set and still undervalued (although getting close to being overvalued lately). tough to find in good condition because of the gold borders.

I am far more fascinated with the backs and how they were printed. There are several very tough backs incl. Broadleaf, Hindu, and Drum...the easiest back is piedmont w/ polar bear a close second (yes, folks, after years of research, polar bear is second with sweet cap red a close third and sweet cap black fourth). Kills me when people charge a premium for the polar bear cards...

It is a beautiful set and a complete set without variations is possible. Not a ton of high dollar cards but be prepared to spend money on the Cobb, Johnson, and some of the rarer cards.

Good luck.

-Joshua

PS Coming soon is my annual t-205 back population report and request for info. Going to happen in december instead of the usual september. Stay tuned.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

in the back system in terms of rarity?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I have an almost complete set which I am forever upgrading. I don't have the ultra-rare/expensive Hoblitzell no stats variation. I'm not sure I will ever want it enough to pay what it costs (GAI 5 for $15K+ in the Mastro Auction). As a collector I have always been far more interested in the subjects (players) than in errors/variations on the backs of cards. I am also not especially interested in owning lots of different companies. I'd rather spend my money on having nicer cards of Cobb, Johnson or Young....

My sense based on years of collecting T205s is that Honest Long Cut is less common than Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Hassan, Polar Bear or Sovereign and is maybe a little easier to come by than Cycle or American Beauty. The real tough ones that people do seem to be willing to pay extra for are the others -- Broadleaf, Hindu and Drum...

Oh and my question: I recall that after the infamous No Stats variation another of the Hoblitzell cards is also fairly scarce (although this is not usually reflected in the guides) which one is it again ? I know TBob has mentioned it at least once or twice.

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Posted By: Greg

Did anyone here get the No stats Hob that was on ebay last year? I've actually seen a blank backed one too. Is there any indication as to why there are so many rare non-variation players in this set (Suggs, Rowan etc.)? Part of a short second printing late in the game?
Greg

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Posted By: J Levine

Been working on the backs/variations/printings for a long time now. I feel I am getting closer. Eventually I will publish my results but as of now, there was at least 2 and probably 3 distinct printings with certain cards substituted in later and some removed to make room. Not to mention that the companies seem to have printed different variations and cards.

Just for fun since a couple of people asked...here is a quick breakdown of back rarity based on over seven years of tracking backs sold on ebay, auctions, shows, and catalogs. Granted, no study can be complete (cards in collections, etc.) but I think that this is fairly accurate.

From hardest to easiest...
Drum
Hindu
Broadleaf (black)
Broadleaf (brown)
Piedmont Fact. 42
American Beauty (black)
American Beauty (green)
Cycle
Soverign
Hassan Fact. 30
Sweet Cap. (black) Fact. 42
Honest Long Cut
Hassan Fact. 649
Sweet Cap. (black) Fact. 25
Sweet Cap. (red)
Polar Bear
Piedmont Fact. 25

Polar Bear and Sweet Cap. red are virtually identical in scarcity. Yes, Piedmont Fact. 42 is very scarce but I think that it may jump up to around Cycle if more people would recognize it but I have had a hard time finding these. In the past some people have split Soverign into light green and dark green but I think that it is just fading. Again, this is not set in stone but feel free to argue. I will try to compile the true results and breakdowns next week and post it then.

-Joshua

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Posted By: Geno

I would definitely pursue the set - it's fun and it's pretty easy to find just about every card. If you start chasing backs and variations, it will be much harder, so I just stuck to the basic 208 card set. The bios on the back make it a great set to get a feel for the game during that time period. There's a couple of tough cards that don't show up as often as the price guides indicate, at least in my opinion. The Wagner card (not Honus) sticks out in my mind as one that was tough to find - I'm sure I could think of some more, but in general, they are all accessible if you stay with the basic 208. It took me twenty years, but that was through college, marriage, babies, etc period of my life. When I got serious again about 17 years after my few, it only took about three years and was constrained by a military paycheck, not the difficulty of finding them. Good Luck!!

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Posted By: tbob

Having completed the T205 set card by card, I found the Rowan, Joss and Fisher to be the three toughest non-Hoblitzell cards. Hobby no stats is the toughest variation and the Hoblitzell "no Cin" "named spelled correctly on the back" is the 2nd toughest although a few would argue Hoblitzell "with one L on the back" is slightly tougher. I respectfully disagree and I believe I am in the majority. There is also a split between the Hindu and Drum camps for which is the toughest back. As recognized an authority as Lew Lipset believes it is Hindu and I agree. Probably more T205 collectors believe the Drum is tougher, I would say it is 65-35% favoring the Drum. I think the Drum back benefits from its rarity in the T206 series on this question.

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Posted By: J Levine

this one is easy for me...over the last seven years I have seen fewer than 10 drum backs sold at auction or purchase (one, the bridwell, has been sold four seperate times[counted only once]). There have been nearly 4 times as many hindu sold...might be because drum is tough in t-206 so hoarded in the t-205 set. Personally, I have owned 3 hindus in 10 years (still own two) and have never owned a drum.

Kevin Struss and Lew Lipset (among others) have said that drum is scarcer. This might be due to the fact that hindu was virtually unknown until the late '70s. A large hoard was found then and since then a few other stashes have popped up of hindu. this has yet to happen for drum but I am hopeful

-Joshua

PS My word is not gospel and I do not speak for other collectors but this is my opinion based on my research.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

actually the broadleaf t205 back comes in black(sometimes a bit faded) and olive green. i have not seen a brown one, it is probably a weaker black print. the olive green one seems a little tougher.

scott

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Posted By: Art M.

After Bill Heitman wrote his T206 The Monster book he began to write a T205 book. In his writings on the T205 cards, which were never completely published, he covers all of the T205 backs and did NOT include Hindu as a possible back. He looked at tens of thousands T205 cards.
While the T205 Drum back is very rare, I would lean towards the Hindu as a bit tougher based on the Bill Heitman evidence.
You can also compare the 1911 T205 Hindu being distributed about the same time as the late 1910, early 1911 T206 Hindu Red back and the scarcity of the Hindu Red is well documented.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

art,

i have to disagree as the others have above.
i have never owned a drum, although i have seen a few and tried several times to be the happy winner. i have seen more hindu's and owned several of those as well.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I agree with Scott B. on this one. I was lucky enough to own a T205 Drum at one time. I was lucky to get it, in that the seller sold it to me just two days into the auction - he was afraid the then current high bidder wouldn't pay, and couldn't pass the $ I offered him for what he considered a common T205. Anyway, I owned between 3-6 T205 Hindus over the years (and turned down several others)

I would guess the T205 Drum is easily 4 times rarer than a T205 Hindu (at least). It seems I have also heard rumors of a T205 Hindu "find" - which occured well after "The Monster" was published and would possibly account for them being so more plentiful than Drums these days. Anybody have any solid info. on the T205 Hindu find????

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Posted By: Lentel

Brian in my opinion the Hoblitzell with "Hoblitzel" one L on the back is second in difficulty only to the no stats version. the guide lists the "Cin" version and the second most difficult but those are as common as flies to me. They are everywhere and in every auction and card show.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I would agree on the Hobby, that Cin is common as dirt, but the one "L" is very hard. I lucked out when I started my t205 set and found a no stats right away and the name correct no Cin was the last Hobby that got. The tough Collins was one of the last cards I needed for the set. I was pretty fortunate to find all the tough cards early on, but I also had the benefit of starting this set in 1982.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: Lentel

Jay tell me the story of how and when you got the no stats version? You are really lucky!

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Posted By: jay behrens

I was lucky enough in 1982 to be stationed in Philadelphia and got to know Bill Bossert and Ron Oser. I got a nice start on the t205 set by getting 37 cards from a group of freshly opened packs I was lucky enough to help open. Then with the help of those 2 dealers, I was able to track down the toughies right away at the Willow Grove show in the spring of 82 and few other shows around that time.

That Willow Grove show still stands out in my mind for the staggering amount of rare material there. If I knew then what I knew now, I would have scraped up the $5k for the Wagner and bought all those e107s, OJs and t3 set I saw, among other incredible things.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

seems like I learn something new every day about this fine hobby.

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Posted By: J Levine

Scott is correct...typing at midnight slowed me down...broadleaf does come in a blackish/brownish tone and a ugly olive green. The olive green one is more difficult. AS to the Hobby no stats...toughest card in set. The Hobby without the cin. is extremely tough. Wallace one line of 1910 stats seems to be #3 although suggs and rowan are close behind...the hobby no stats only comes with a hassan back.

Jay, what factory does your hobby no stats show? is it 30 or 649? thanks,

joshua

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Posted By: jay behrens

I sold my original collection fo t205s back in 1990. The only card I have left from my collecting days in the 80s is an OJ of Carrol who played for St Paul. I still have the 1971 and 72 Topps cards form childhood, but that's it. I now have a very humble collection of very low grade cards, the m101-5 Thorpe being the centerpiece, that I buy when I have a few extra dollars to spend on cards.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.