Mastro Results: Proof of Shilling or other factors at play?

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

As someone who has spent alot of money over the years in Mastro auctions, I have been closely following the developments of the last year with respect to the FBI's investigation of Mastro. I'm sure some of you read that Mastro was hit with subpoenas during the National as the FBI is investigating Mastro for all sorts of practices including shilling (Mastro was unable or unwilling to supply the FBI with past bidding records) and doctoring and misrepresenting "authenticated" material (PSA was hit with subpoenas in connection with the government's building case).

So with the FBI watching so closely and the investigation on-going, last night Mastro's big summer auction ends and its final total tally barely surpassed $5M. Despite the fact that for many years Mastro's auctions would without fail surpass $10M and usually inch closer to $12M.

So what do you think is happening?

Is the economy slowing down buying?

Is Mastro just not attracting the same quality of cards and memorabilia?

Are bidders scared to bid high with Mastro because of the investigation?

Or has Mastro stopped the practice of shilling (if indeed they were shilling to begin with)?

I would love to hear fellow collectors opinions.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I simply think that running an auction is just no fun when you have to play it by the rules contained in the United States Code.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Aaron- this is a provocative question but you are asking people to speculate, something that is dangerous given the serious charges the company faces. There are a lot of things going on and all will to some degree have an effect on the results. But I, nor anyone else, know the facts, so why go there?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, first off, Mastro is facing no charges. At least not today. Secondly, why is it not fair to speculate about the reasons behind Mastro's lower prices and lamer auction? Are you concerned that Bill's and Doug's feelings will be hurt? Fwiw, I do feel that I wasn't the victim of shill bidding in this past auction -- and that's a very nice feeling to have after a Mastro auction for me.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

If they are not facing charges then excuse my erroneous comment. And no, I do not worry about hurting their feelings, they are big boys.

But if this thread continues with a series of wild guesses about what is going on, then it will probably contain more misinformation than information.

I clearly saw the total was much lower than usual, but I am not able to pinpoint why that is so. But if people want to guess, fine, guess away.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Barry's points on this issue are incredibly valid and need to be taken seriously before folks reply to the more speculative/gossipy questions posed by the originator of this thread. I don't say this to protect anybody, but rather to avoid readers of this thread from misconstruing conjecture with fact. None of us know the whole story here. I really don't see how the theories of Joe Top Loader from Holcombe, Kansas (or London, Ontario, for that matter ) would be of any benefit. Here's hoping that, if this thread is to continue, all of us can refrain from discussing anything but the facts. It will make for a more constructive discussion.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

The material wasn't as good, overall, and that is what lead to a lower overall net. I also think there are a few less T206 registry guys than there were in the last few years and that kept some of those prices down too. The economy might have a little to do with it but not as much as my first two thoughts......regards

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Prices weren't down on the T206 group lots. I was following them and all went for retail, or a little above.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I was talking more about the individual high grade T206's....hence my registry innuendo...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Interesting that high grade is down, and group lots are strong. Perhaps the collector is rising and the registry crowd is waning.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry- look at me...i did the high-grade game for years. now, i'm completely out of that area, and building a VG raw T206 Set...

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

No one here knows who or specifically what the FBI is focused on. As Jeff pointed out in another thread, most subpoenas are given to witnesses and other holders of information, not the focus of criminal investigation. With a car accident case, an innocent bystander could be subpoenaed to testify about what he saw, and the prosecutor would be the first to say the bystander has done nothing wrong. Also realize if there is shilling with auctions, it could be the consignors not the auction house who are shilling. Many regularly complain about shilling on eBay, but few if any of these accusers believe eBay itself is placing the shill bids.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I know Michael..we may be seeing a shift in the market.

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Klevens

One problem could be the lack of emails to remind bidders. I think they sent one email on Monday and that was it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

Barry, yes I'm asking for opinions/speculation.

The FBI's investigation is not a secret, nor are some of the allegations they are looking into. (The FBI subpeonad Mastro and PSA at The National for this very reason.) This directly effects our hobby -- and in a protective manner, mind you, so I think it is abolsutely a fair issue to discuss and to speculate.

The first auction post The National and Mastro's auction total falls off more than 50%. Don't you find that the least suspicious, or in the least as this is significant news within our hobby, worthy of discussing?

Honestly, Barry, going back to a thread on the card board, as shocking as it may sound, my opinions are more in line with Bruce Dorskind's than yours on the subject. The investigation is there. It's a good thing for the hobby. And let's talk about it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, just to clarify: subpoenas for grand jury testimony are given to witnesses because, after all, why give a target of a grand jury a subpoena to testify in front of that grand jury when he can simply invoke the Fifth Amendment and refuse to answer questions? Subpoenas for records, documents, etc. are often given to targets of criminal investigations because only in the rarest of circumstances can the recipient of a subpoena for documents assert the Fifth Amendment and refuse to turn over materials.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

Thanks for the input leon. I know since Mastro is an advertiser on N54 and you are close with many of their employees, you (and many others) are hoping that the investigation doesn't uncover any wrongdoing.

Personally, I'm extremly suspicious. Rumors of Mastro shilling have been around for years, yes, we all know that. But Mastro seemingly willingly left itself open to those peristent ruomrs by continuing to allow Mastro employees to bid on Mastro lots (which may have been the least of what they were doing).

But there is some mighty suspicious circumstancial evidence building. First, when the FBI asked for Mastro's past bidding records and Mastro was unable to provide them (which in itself was a violation of the US Code). Now as the Feds have turned up the heat, Mastro's auction totals fall off a cliff.

I think if the above doesn't raise your suspicions, then you either have your blinders on or you aren't a responsible and educated collector.

In any case, I'm anxious to see what happens. I certainly don't think Mastro is alone in this practice (if they are guilty of shilling, card doctoring, or any other number of fraudulent and/or criminal activities), but since Mastro seems to be the center of the FBI's investigation (at least publicly), its outcome is going to have a profound effect to our hobby (sports cards, sports memoribilia, and non-sports cards will all feel it).

Whatever the outcome, I am extremly happy that at the least our hobby is finally getting a thorough look though by the federal government. If there's any wrong-doing, I'm sure they will uncover it. If not, then we can all move forward and bid with confidence.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

Barry and Jodi, I'll do my best to monitor this thread to make sure there is no misinformation. So far the only erroneous input was Barry's mention that charges have been filed. As Jeff has already pointed out, no charges have been filed and the investigation is on-going.

If anyone is interested in reading about the investigation or what transpired at the National, here are some links:

http://sportscardinfo.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/operation-foul-ball-fbi-appears-at-the-2008-national/

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2007/07/08/2007-07-08_fbi_probes_hobby_biz_honchos-1.html>

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Aaron,

You're going about this the right way, and I commend you for it.

I understand everybody's need to gain insight into such a hot-button issue. Everyone has questions, but refraining from idle, public speculation will only serve us positively in the long run. Let's keep this on the proper track.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

As this Mastro Auction progressed, I was wondering the same thing as Aaron (and had pondered the same exact questions). I won't comment on the speculation of shill bidding, as I have no pertinent information to back it up.

This auction generated roughly 42% of the revenue of a typical Mastro Premier Auction in recent years. I believe the reason is three-fold...

1. Significantly lesser material was offered this time around. My "watched items" were less than half the number of a typical Mastro Auction (which corresponds with their final prices realized).

2. Mastro just recently conducted their Live Auction at the National. This event was (I believe) quite successful, and I am sure that many of those consignments came at the expense of this August Auction which just concluded. I don't have the sales figures from the Live Auction, but I bet that the two events combined, come close to matching the typical $10 - 12 million mark for Mastro.

3. The economy had to play into it as well. It is a simple fact that less disposable income currently exists for cards/memorabilia than last year at this time.

There are certainly other external factors, but I believe these to be the top three.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

Three great points, Mark.

I definitely agree in terms of the quality and variety of sports memoribilia. This auction, as well as their April auction, just didn't have the feel of a Mastro auction. Not a lot of quality items, and very little diversity in what they offered. (Of course, that brings a whole other question as to why they aren't able to maintain the same level of inventory they have the last few years.)

Great point about the Live auction. Anyone know how much they totaled?

I think the economy has to play a part in it. Times are tougher than they were even a year ago, but I don't think less disposable income can explain a drop of that magnitude, although certainly it could have been a contributing factor.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Rather than attribute the lower prices simply to the economic downturn, it may be that sellers anticipated that the market was going to cool off and held back their best stuff.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Aaron- that is fine and all are free to speculate. I would just hate to see people throw out outlandish opinions that aren't even close to the facts.

One question: when you say your opinions are closer to Bruce Dorskind's than mine, could you be specific? Bruce tends to throw out all kinds of things, so I'm not certain which one you refer to.

I'll throw one out myself regarding some of the lower prices: I think there was a bit of a hobby bubble that just burst. I think we will continue to see more puzzling prices realized in the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Up until the developments at the National, all of the discussion/speculation revolved around Mastro. What the ultimate outcome of that one will be whether indictments are issued and their ultimate disposition. In the interim, there has been no shortage of speculation how in the end their auctions will be impacted.

An interesting parallel is now seemingly PSA has been added to the investigation. I'd heard the Feds were interested in looking into the consequences of their cozy relationship with auction houses. However, that was the first time I read that the Feds were also looking to get an education about card doctoring. In fact, the article's specific reference to a person the FBI interviewed at the National as a card doctorer suggests that the Feds' interest in that person pertains less to what he might provide about shill bidding and more to what he might tell them about card doctoring. Any thoughts therefore what the implications could be to both PSA as a company and to the value of their slabbed cards if they be convicted of either (1) intentionally overlooking altered cards or (2) having more lenient grading standards on submissions from favorite customers (e.g., major auction houses).

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

As I've said before, and it's worth repeating, if any of the grading companies are found to be giving inflated grades to its biggest customers (and I can't help but think this may be true), then those companies should be shut down.

Everyone knows that important clients are always offered special considerations, and I understand that completely. And there are many perks grading services can offer them, such as reduced fees on large submissions; quicker turnaround time to help the company meet its auction deadline; and free publicity in their hobby publications, to name a few.

But if there is one thing that is inviolable it is that no auction house, no matter how big or powerful, should have any say whatsoever regarding the final grade assigned a card. If that is found to be true, then the whole industry is a sham.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, in my view the entire auction industry is a sham which will be borne out over the next year or so. My guess is that when heads start to roll the prevailing mentality will be to take others down with them -- after all, if you're willing to defraud your purported friends cooperating against others isn't much of a leap. And if the feds have the energy, resources and interest they may do a full investigation into our lovely hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It might get pretty ugly...but the end result will be a much better hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You are correct in my hoping that Mastro is found to have not done any wrongdoing. Many of them I consider friends and I always hope the best for friends. I am not naive though so am waiting for the outcome of the investigation. I think you are smart enough to know that the piddly amount I receive from any advertiser is not enough to lose what decent name I have made for myself in the hobby. I don't "protect" anyone on the board and the board is wide open for comments, with the anonymity rules in place. When O'keefe called me at the National I told him exactly what I thought and he did a damn good job of reporting exactly what I said. Friend or not, if someone gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar then they should pay just like anyone else, inluding you or I. I think there are folks close to the investigation that read the board and my understanding(privately)is that there will be some indictments eventually handed down. I do not think this will be the demise of the auction business at all and it might actually make it stronger, after the fact. As a matter of a fact I have told numerous people that I hope more investigations happen. Why not? Scott B and I are in an extraordinary position with our auction house in that we know most of the current pitfalls and have written procedures in place to help alleviate concerns, whereas older more established ones have set policies....that they may have to change a little bit moving forward. I still find it hard to believe that it is common practice for employees of auction houses to bid in their own auctions...but that is a personal opinion.... best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, you're a nice guy -- but would you still consider auction house people your friends if you found out you were a victim of their fraud?

[Archive]

Posted By: bruce Dorskind

We agree with Leon, Barry and others that Mastro Auctions, and for that matter
everyone else (rumored or otherwise), is innocent until proven guilty.

At this stage the outcome is pure speculation. Speculation is a dangerous game. Just ask
any of the pundits who had narrowed McCain's choice for VP down to two people.

Our general observation about the most recent Mastro Auction is that quality of material
was weaker than usual, and the current climate of economic uncertainty did not help

We also believe that the mid-September Goodwin and Memory Lane Auctions have many more
rare, interesting and high grade cards than those that appeared in the Mastro auction.

However, we did bid (and did not win) on four items. Two of items went for nearly double the price
that was realized at another major auction less than 6 months ago. It is clear it is the material
(and timing), not the seller, that is the most important factor in influencing price. (Of course, we
are assuming that the comparison is between well known sports/baseball auction houses).

As for the current Federal Investigation, It appears that justice is on the side of the collectors) at long last.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Don't knock McCain's choice...he's locked up the eskimo vote.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Have you heard the names of her kids? Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow and some other name stolen from that show "Charmed". Something tells me she's into NASCAR.

[Archive]

Posted By: Max Weder

Barry, it's Inuit, by the way.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

In a weird sort of way, yes, I would still consider them friends if I found out I was shill bid. I would also expect an apology, restitution, and a sworn promise never to do it again. I don't think I would take it as personally as some might because, if it did happen, I doubt individuals would have been targeted as much as lots were raised indiscriminantly to enhance profits. And NO, I wouldn't be happy about it. For now it is only speculation though. BTW, of course, if I found I was targeted personally then yes, I would be mad as hell and might not get over it very quickly. In other words if, and that is still a big IF, it was done across the board, I would be a bit less upset "personally" than if I were targeted. Hope this explains my thoughts a little bit. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Max- is eskimo politically incorrect? I guess I am showing my disdain for the whole thing.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- if you have gone out of your way to make sure you can not see ceiling bids and that nobody can or will be shilled in a B & L auction, how can you not be mad as hell if some other auction house does it as a matter of business? I would think you should be outraged.

If I thought a friend was cheating me that would be the end of the friendship. And if I thought I was being shilled by an auction house I would no longer do business with them. How could I?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Oh great, Barry, now you don't like Eskimos. I thought the Dems were the party of inclusion (I mean other than Muslim women in headscarves that may find their way into a picture).

Edited to add: thank you Barry for some lucidity on the victim issue.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Some of my best friends are eskimos.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

<<Some of my best friends are eskimos.>>


Sure. They all say that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, nice try Barry. We've got your number, don't worry. Antieskimoite!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hey, C'mon guys...I think Sarno is part eskimo, isn't he? (Hi Michael )

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

What I was getting at is that IF an auction house shill bid me up on a lot, and it was done across the board, I would be very upset but not take it as personally as if I were a "target". As I think I said I wouldn't be happy about it either way.....

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

But the question is would you continue doing business with them (and you are allowed to answer "yes").

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, you sound like you'd be a very happy fraud victim! Remind me to sell you a bridge one day -- after all, it's just business.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Barry- I don't know....you know as well as I do that generally speaking cards trump all, right Jeff?

Jeff- Please show me where I said I would be happy if I were defrauded?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe it's just me, but if I felt I was defrauded, cards would not trump all else. There is a point where I feel I would have to take my business elsewhere.

It's that addiction to cardboard which allows the auction houses to get away with what they do, and they know it all too well.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry...full I-talian

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Barry,

I'd dole out some serious coin to see you attempt to strap on a mukluk.

[Archive]

Posted By: martindl

I watched and participated in the Connoisseur portion of Mastro's auction yesterday and by and large Mastro and their consigners got hammered. Many, many lots sold for just opening bid, and action was very light on many items.

I will say that my participation in art and antiques auctions has not wavered, in fact its strengthened, over the past twelve months. Every auction I've been to, save one, had results that were very low compared to what similar items have sold for over the past two years. Its a buyers paradise for me and its definitely the economy.

Mastro's connoisseur lots were on Ebay also, and it still didn't help.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron M.

You bring up an interesting point, Martin. Regardless of sub-hobby, Mastro's action was light. Check out this thread on the vintage non-sports card message board, concerning sharp decreases in prices for non-sports cards from previous Mastro auctions:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1220021296/last-1220065232/Mastronet+-+Aug+2008

Again, it makes me wonder. It's not like just PSA graded baseball cards are experiencing a market down turn. EVERYTHING is selling for less at Mastro. Art, antiques, sports cards, non-sports cards, sports memoribilia, etc.

It makes it harder to say, "well baseball cards are declining in value", because the decline is so comprehensive. With obvious individual item exceptions, if you base values on Mastro's sales figures, then basically all collectibles are declining in value.

I think you could look at the economy as a whole and say what the collectibles world is facing is a just a microcosm and reflection of that, but it could also raise supicions.