Autograph help

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

I was fortunate enough to pick up this nice Tuxedo Ad from an offer I had submitted on ebay.

What do you guys think about the signatures? They appear to have been signed in what looks like to be an old fountain pen by Matty, Cobb, Bresnahan, Alexander, Huggins, and Hoblitzell. I would like some opinions on this item as I am not sure if the signatures are real or not. Should I just get it authenticated?

Any input is appreciated.


<br/>

<br/>

<br/>

<br/>

<br/>


<br/>

<br/>


<br/>

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

They look good. They each have the correct characteristics, and the fact that there's no feathering of the ink is a good sign the signatures were not done recently.
Without an in-person examination I can't be 100% sure, but I'd say you've got a very valuable item there.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike H

I would have it authenticated. It looks good, but I would want a professional oppinion if I were you. Congrats.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Wow guys, thanks alot. I have maybe sent in an autograph once to be authenticated. Who should I send it to? PSA/DNA or SGC/JSA.

Edited to say: Could you explain to me what feathering is?

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

Send it to Jimmy Spence at JSA.

Actually, don't send it. Find his show schedule at his website, and try to bring it to him at a show.

Feathering is when the ink spreads in all directions when applied to the paper--like when you write on a napkin or tissue with a fountain pen. It occurs when ink is applied to very old paper.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

David---email sent.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark L

Did Hoblitzell misspell his last name? Shouldn't there be a "t" in there somewhere?

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Mark--good catch. I have nothing to compare it to as I have never seen a Hoblitzell auto before.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

One worrisome thing is that it wouldn't have been easy to get all these guys to sign--you'd have to go to the ballpark many different times. And it's not the kind of item that people generally had signed in those days. That's worrisome, too.

But if it's no good, it's a damned fine forgery!

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Still worth getting authenticated?

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

Yes.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Steinberg

Looks really good from the images you've provided. If these were forged, someone really took a chance by attempting such a wide array of signatures. I would think a forger would be much better off attempting single-signed items. This would have been a tough/unusual item to get signed by all, back in the day however...

What about the seller? Was he selling any other autographed pieces? Or did he just have other antique-type pieces from the era? Did he appear to be a "dealer" or was he just selling old items from an estate (or something similar). You can often tell a lot by viewing his other items for sale (and viewing his previously sold tems contained in the "feedback" section).

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Offering no opinion if it's authentic. What initially worried me was that all the sigs are so sharp and clean, the combination of sigs (as mentioned by David #1, as the players played for different teams and leagues it would take some logistics or lucky get together to get all the pictured players' sigs) and, beyond the Who's Whos, a mag page is an out of the ordinary thing to be autographed by the players of this era. If the sigs are authentic, the item obviously is worth a small fortune.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

The seller explained to me that she found it in her father-in-law's closet. She had no idea of the authenticity and was unsure of the signatures. I think she was selling one other baseball related item which was a Cool Papa Bell auto that looked legit, but she put the same disclaimer explaining that she had no idea of the authenticity as she did in the Tuxedo auction. The rest of the items that were for sale was a couple coins, dvd's, etc. Hell of a forgery if it turns out to be no good.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Turner, as most would agree, if the sigs are forgeries, they are good ones. With a lot of forged items on this order, at least a couple of the signatures would be obviously bad.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

if the autographs are authentic (and they do look like they are)my guess would be that the item was owned by an employee of the advertised product who might have dealings with the players.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Dennis---I was just thinking the same exact thing. Maybe the person worked for "Tuxedo" or something like that and was able to have it signed when he presented the ad to them?

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Players and retired players attended a lot of reunions, banquets, fancy dinners and similar functions, so it was possible for someone to get a diverse selection of signatures at once. For example, I had a Canton Ohio Mayor's Hall of Fame dinner menu that was signed by a selection of football stars from many different teams.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

David--is it a concern that they were all signed in the same type of pen? There also seems to be old tape on the top and bottom of the back..almost like it was framed at one time.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Steinberg

All are great questions/concerns, and all points are valid (both pro and con). I will be fascinated to see how this one comes back from Spence/PSA or whoever you choose to do the authentication.

Please keep us posted, and let us know the verdict! If this were mine, I would be Fed-Exing it first thing Monday morning...

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Again, I'm not offering an opinion about authenticity, but if the sigs were obtained at a dinner or banquet, it's very much plausible for them to be written from the same pen. It would have been common for an autograph seeker to hand his pen to the celebrity.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Hope I am not killing you guys with questions.

Can a person actually forget to use all the letters in their name?......(Hoblizell) Look at the signature of Arod.
To me the Hoblitzell signature looks unhurried so I guess that would be a negative towards the piece.

Will the "Hoblizell" poison the entire piece for authentication?

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Steinberg

Hoblitzel's autograph is not a deal-killer in my opinion. I do see a slight vertical line before the "z", and there are just not enough exemplars readily available to determine authenticity (I've been looking for some and can't find anything besides the T-205). I don't think you can strictly go by the facsimilie auto on T-205 Card posted.

Are you hesitant to authenticate because of the potential fees involved? Can you do a "quick opinion", and if it returns "likely positive", then you'd have a better basis/incentive for dending it in? This piece would be infinitely more valuable with a letter form PSA or Spence.


Sorry I can't write or spell.... meant to say "If it returns as "Likely Genuine", you would have a better incentive for sending it in for a full authentication...

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Lutz

Mark S's suggestion sounds good to me. If they can take a quick look at them you will be in a much better position to decide what to do with it.
Mark L

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Hey guys...I just wanted to thank everyone for helping me out either thru emails or in this thread regarding the Ad. A "quick review" has been done on this piece and it is no good.
Damn.

Turner Engle

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Steinberg

Did they say what the red flag(s) were? I wonder what specifically they saw that caused them to deem it a fake. They really don't provide much detail on these "quick opinions", do they?

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

I can't say why they wouldn't be deemed authentic....

but a red flag for me - if I was to look at the piece -
is that every signature seems to be done with the same pen.

Since these guys weren't on the same team (like an autographed team baseball) -
the 'single pen' would be something that makes me suspicious.

I'm not saying its fake by any means - but that would be my red flag.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Anytime there is something signed by Mathewson, Cobb, Bresnahan and Miller Higgins, there is a red flag-- or at least an automatic dose of skepticism. Mathewson, Huggins and Bresnahan are very tough, desirable signatures, and to find all three one one item ...

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

I think the problems that were noted during the quick opinion include:

Ty Cobb - not the very slow pen stroke through the T. The ink is two splotchy indicating that it was drawn slowly. What's interesting to note is that the "Cobb" was signed quickly. The fancy underscore under the name should be connected with the last "b".

Mathewson - again, a very slow signing. It was not signed quickly. Also, most Mathewson autographs show a consistent, steep slant through the "T"s which this one does not.

It's too bad because it is a nice piece.

Rob L

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul Grubor

I think the piece looks fantastic. Are you interested in selling it?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Simon

Just looked at this thread and I even know the name of the (deceased, I think) forger. I won't post that name, but I can recall this piece from many years ago.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

"I think it's fantastic?"

??????

The thing is worth at least $10,000 or nothing. A good forgery doesn't means it worth something, like the baseball card world where a misgrade simply reduces the value.

Red flags all around on this baby. Cobb would not be unfamiliar with his signature to stop and in the middle of signing his own name.

I love the theory that perhaps all these men were at a banquet or dinner. ALL of them in the same place at the same time? What are the chances? Passing around the same pen?

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

You know, this piece probably is a forgery. I spoke a bit too soon initially, and soon after had a number of misgivings. So did many of us.

But...

Since when is some examiner at PSA the unimpeachable voice of God?

He says "NAY," and all discussion stops.

Yeah, PSA is probably correct on this one.

But they screw up as often as the rest of us long-time collectors.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Turner- you emailed me privately over the weekend asking me about it, and from the small scan I thought I was looking at an ad with facsimile signatures; it didn't even cross my mind that these could real, and that's why I responded to you the way I did.

While I am not an autograph expert, and admit many of these look pretty good at a glance, one of the tests I use is the common sense one, and this piece falls into the category of too good to be true. If your 90 year old neighbor gave it to you, I might feel differently. But to find it on ebay...

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

David, not only did PSA say it was bad, but Richard Simon just chimed in on this thread saying it was bad too...and that he recalled it as a forgery from some time back.

This piece is bad. Period.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Atkatz

I understand that, Dan.
But all discussion ceased as soon as PSA proclaimed "probably not genuine."
Long before Richard joined in.

I'm not talking about the authenticity of this, or any other piece.
I'm talking about the weight given to the opinion of people who have, for example, certified rubber-stamped signatures.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Okay...I thought you were talking in specific about this item. There are of course many cases where signatures obtained in person have been declined so it does happen.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

Richard---Would you be able to expand anymore on this piece without posting the possible forger's name?

I would like to thank all of the collectors who privately emailed me about this ad and the opinions I was given. Both good and bad.
It may not have fooled some, but I can say quite a few (including myself)were thrown for a loop by this piece.

DJ---I respectfully disagree with you and still feel this is a fantastic piece to frame and hang up on my wall. You would be surprised how many people have contacted me asking if it will be for sale anytime soon.



Turner Engle

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

I don't know jack about autographs, but the first thing I thought was that is was bizarre that every signature was the same line thickness and pressure. It would be almost impossible for so many different people to have such consistency, even if all signed on a perfectly flat and hard surface.

Even as I read through the early posts saying they looked good I was thinking I would be the ignorant cynic that would point that out.

Sorry if they are not real Turner. No one was rooting for it more than me as I scrolled down the thread tonight.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Simon

Turner - the piece was forged by the "fat guy from Brooklyn" is as far as I will go in identifying him. Old timers might know who that is.
I have been told by reliable sources that he is deceased.
It was on display at a show I attended (at least 12-15 yrs ago) by a known front man of the forger.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

DJ---I respectfully disagree with you and still feel this is a fantastic piece to frame and hang up on my wall. You would be surprised how many people have contacted me asking if it will be for sale anytime soon.

Turner, no offense, but I don't think I'm incorrect. If this has been certified "unauthentic", then the piece is worth less than if it didn't have signatures on it, if indeed this item had value to begin with. Autographs are either worth something ($10K) for this piece if authentic or ($0) if unauthentic. When people see this piece on the wall, do you tell them..."this is a great piece full of forgeries?".

Forgeries = a tampered piece with the work of a desparate man's scrawl all over it.

People who buy forgeries only trick themselves to believe that they in fact have something someone may be incorrect about in their opinion and are only wasting their money and fooling themselves. If money is offered here...I suggest you take it and run.

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

DJ, I still like it and I guess according to your thinking one should never take a chance. It cost me very little for a good lesson learned.

Turner

I was requesting autograph help originally and didn't know I was buying a forgery.

[Archive]

Posted By: raisin bran

I think it is an attractive piece and would definitely pay $100 for it regardless of authenticity. A nice frame would make it look even better.

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

Turner,

It's kind of like getting off a New York City bus, seeing a shady looking guy with a briefcase with Rolex watches and saying "Ooooo bargain!" and taking three for $100 and then finding out later that their no good and actually Bolex watches.

A few months ago, a guy on eBay offered a Babe Ruth signed ball. It was removed by eBay because of it had authenticity issues. The seller (honest) threw it back up on eBay stating that a third party authenticator had failed it and it still sold for $400.

Why anyone would want to pay money for something that wasn't genuine is beyond me, but I guess they do and people who openly want to purchase bogus signatures are keeping the forgers and fraud peddlers in business.

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry

<people who openly want to purchase bogus signatures are <keeping the forgers and fraud peddlers in business.

Maybe its the only way they know to make a living?
Its probably better than standing around bothering people with a sign that says...will work for food.

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

DJ, You are taking all the fun out of everything.

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

Turner,

If autograph fraud and deceiving the public is fun...well I guess I'm ruining everyone's fun then.

You do know that people go to jail for autograph fraud right? It is illegal. Ask them if they are having any fun.

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry

If the alternative was being homeless, cold and hungry in the wintertime then jail wouldn't bother them much. In jail they get a warm bunk and three square meals a day, and we, the taxpayers, foot the bill for the "country club" prison stay. When they get back out they probably start forging again.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

I had that on my watch list and the next day the auction was ended early. I thought it was too good to be true seeing all of those autographs on that item. Hope it works out for you though !

[Archive]

Posted By: Turner Engle

thanks Brett for your kind words.