Why Insult The Buyers???

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Posted By: Joe P.

We see this done quite often by some greedy sellers on eBay. ... sometimes called "Elite Power Sellers."

"High Beckett Book Value for this card in EX/MT is $200.00."

The Idiot is trying to sell a VG with a book asking price of $55.00.

I don't know about others, but I resent the morons attempt, and middle school approach.
As for me, it's an automatic move on to the serious dealer that lays his cards on the table and has passed the course of business 101.

What's your stand and thoughts on this High book illusionary practice?

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Posted By: Paul

This is what I see at shows

Book price--higher than any book price I have seen

My price--still higher than any price for the card's condition.

It is in defensable doing this with prices.

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Posted By: hankron

I don't know how it applies now, but a few years ago when email auctions were common listing the high book price was a common event and a reasonable practice.

If, in an email, the seller had 500 lots, he or she would list the grade, min bid and Near Mint book value for each card. This was intended only as a convenience for the bidder-- so they didn't have to look up each price in the Becket or wherever. Commonly, elsewhere in the total auction description, it was explained what the high book value meant and why it was included (i.e. Vg = 30% high book, etc).

In other words, the email auctioneer was not explicitly not saying the card was worth high book, but that the number was included so the bidder could do his own calculations. In fact, I know that there were sometimes complaints if an auctioneer didn't include the high book. Personally, as a bidder, it was a great service to not have to look up each value in the Beckett.

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Posted By: Joe P.

My original quote:
"The Idiot is trying to sell a VG with a book asking price of $55.00."
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*
*
The mental giant is trying to sell a VG card that HAS a book asking price of $55.00.

David, outside of a smokescreen, what is the need to discuss an EX/MT price when he is trying to sell a VG card that he has pictured?

Where does the $200.00 come in?
Would you call that a weak and lame attempt to mislead?
Are you defending that practice?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

At the National I asked a dealer about a Newsboy boxing cabinet card. He wanted $175, which was a little high for the card. I was also concerned about what looked like a small tear in the image that had been repaired. I started to haggle and he told me that the card books at $300. I asked him what book and he said "Oh, a book I have on boxing cabinet cards."

The punch line is that there is no such book. I WROTE the only book that prices these cards and a $300 price on the card in that shape was not my work product.

When I see a dealer pull this sort of crap, I am reminded of Gandalf's last words as he fell into the pit after the Balrog: "Run, you fools!"

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Posted By: The Other One (Julie)

A common practice in figuring the price of a card (Not precisely what the Standard Catalogue does, by any means), is to keep halving. If the card lists for $300 in near mint, then it would be $150 in ex (it usually lists lower), and $75 in VG--and you can keep right on halving from there! Some cards (especially in the 19th century) cannot be had for list price and others (still in the 19th century) never achieve book price. You get to know which are which. For truly rare cards ( a N167 Ewing changed hands recently), I ask what the near mint list is, and if the card is VG, I guess about half--and I often guess right! Scrapps are not very popular, and seldom achieve book price, and Tobin Lithographs are climbing, but also seldom achieve book price.

You can look at it this way: dealer is trying to cheat you. Or, this way: dealer is trying to give you a frame of reference.

It would be nice, as has been pointed out, if the "frame of reference" were an honest one! Dishonest dealers should not try selling boxing cards to the only person who ever wrote a book on the subject!

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Posted By: hankron

I wasn't objecting to anyone's objections-- and I agree that they way high book is used for a Vg card on eBay is often objectionable (3 objections in one sentence-- new board record). I was merely pointing out there were traditional situations where the quoting of Near Mint book was reasonable.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Personally, I tink it's pretty tacky to list a NM book value of a card you selling that is only VG. If you've taken the time to look in a price guide to see what the NM price is, it's certainly not that difficult to shift your view 1/2" or less and look at the VG price and list that instead. It's simpley a ploy to try and get people to pay more for a low grade card.

Jay

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Posted By: ItAintRight

I always wonder why people list HIGH book prices for a card that isn't even close to being in EX condition and worse yet quoting the HIGH book value for a card in less than VG condition. I also wonder why people give the SMR price for a card that hasn't been graded.

If the card is worth anything it will be bid to it's appropriate level unless the seller has a bad reputation.

Let the card sell itself. Also, do everyone a favor and accurately describe the item. If you feel you have to provide the HIGH book value why not also include the published value of the card in the condition that it is in. Oh yeah, grading is subjective - too bad people can't understand that completely rounded corners don't qualify as EX condition or better. Let me stop before I get on a roll.....

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Joe--I'm with you. I think it is included to mislead, not to inform.

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Posted By: Cy

Hi Joe,

I don't think this guy was trying to mislead you. It is possible that his price was high. But it isn't wrong or misleading to take the high book value and work off that. In fact that is exactly what Bob Lemke does in the SCD guide.

The SCD sets a high book price and then takes a percentage of that price for the Ex grade card and another percentage for the VG card. These percentages may be different for different sets of cards. But in a specific set, they are usually the same, or very close to the same percentage for the majority of cards.

What this seller is doing (I am not this seller) is telling you that the High Book value is $200 and he is willing to sell the VG card at $55 or 27.5% of high book. There are many collectors who do gauge the price of a card, at any condition, from the high book price. As I stated earlier, the SCD does this, too.

In fact, if you look at the T207 prices in the 2004 SCD guide, the VG grade is approximatelt 27.5% of high book for many of cards in that set, which would result in a VG card selling for $55. I don't see a scam or misrepresentation. He was just giving you the guide for NM and VG. When someone is buying a card, Ttese questions are asked a lot irrespective of the grade.

Take care, Joe.

Cy

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Posted By: Chris Stufflestreet

When I was a seller, I used to spend time before shows making certain everything was fairly priced. In other words, if I had a card that Dr. Beckett said was worth $20 and it was Ex/NM, I didn't mark it with a $20 tag, I made it $12 or $15. I wouldn't have stuck a High BV tag on a card that was obviously flawed, because to me that wasn't right.

Now, I go to shows and see far too many sellers who don't do that kind of preparation...if I'm interested in a card, I find it a waste of my time to wait for the seller to go through this routine:

1. Pull out a Beckett
2. Try to determine what set the card is from (this one really bug me...if you don't know what a '51 Bowman card is by lookin at it, you shouldn't be selling the damned thing!)
3. Offer it to you at a price that's way to high for you to pay.

I recently went to a small mall show, and found a Hi # '51 Bowman card that was in terrible shape. I asked the seller if he'd let it go for $3 (which I feel is more than reasonable for a '51B Hi # in F/G), and he pulled out the ol' Beckett and then asked, "do you know what set it's from?" Looking at the book, he says, "I can't let it go for less than $20...It's a $50 card."

I told him that he obviously wasn't allowing for condition, because anybody who'd call himself a card seller would certainly know that a card in F/G wouldn't fetch 40% of High Beckett...he pointed to the Hi BV and said, "it says right here it's $50." I then went to the next table.

Which brings me to another point...why is it that some collectors and seller s can quote Hi Beckett for hundreds of cards, yet don't know how much to discount for condition? For goodness sake, THAT info is the same in every issue!

A nice postscript to my story about that seller...when I went to the next table, I hear a crash. Whe the seller went to put that Bowman card back on his display, he bumped a 3200-count box full of shiny modern game-used, autographed and "chase" cards and knocked it off the table. I had to laugh at that.

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Posted By: BillL

As a past dealer turned mostly collector, I tend to disagree with the general consensus going on here. Everything I ever bought or sold was based on a % of book.
All of my stuff had HBV on the back (eliminated the rush to look it up while the customer was walking away). I can't memorize book prices (especially 3 grades), but I can recognize HBV as right/wrong when I see them. Also,(no offense to anybody)depending on the guide used, you might have to trust someone to read the guide correctly, grade it correctly and do math. I'm usually good for 1/3.
To belabor some more, if I see a $30 price on a beatup T206 with a rare back, I know that it has been discounted, but from what? If the auction or price tag state HBV of $300, (which I would still verify if not sure)then I can see that $30 is a good price. But if I have to dig around/ask for HBV, find out it is a $100 card in NRMT, look at the card again to realize that it is overpriced, I'm usualy pretty irritated by the 3rd auction or table. Give me HBV any time. The best price tags(IMO) read something like 100/30. Gives me everything I need to know. Pricing without basis, based on someone else's grading and math is too risky for me. I'll do my own discounting for condition.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Being bleesed with an incredible memory, I had little use for price guides beyond the cursory glace to update myself on new values. Even still, I never found it neccessary to quote the high book value to someone in order to justify my prices. If you are collector, you better damn well know the market for what you collect.

I never had a problem educating someone that wanted to learn about new sets, etc, but using the prices for commons can be misleading, especially with sets that have known scarcities that are not reflected in the guides. A perfect example is the Sherman Lollar card from the 55 Topps set. This is almost always one of the last if not the last card needed to complete the set, yet price guides don't reflect this. Also, telling a novice the high book on a VG will do nothing but confuse him or make him think that card is more costly than it actually is.

A dealer, or anyone alse for that matter, that quotes high book for anything other than a NM card is lazy and looking to try sucker people into paying extra.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

But I know enough about what I'm looking for to tell whether a price is in line. My peeve in these situations is a seller who structures the price of a card in line with the book rather than in line with reality. 1933 Goudey #1 and every checklist ever issues are great examples of this thinking. I don't care if it is a bajillion dollars in nm-mt; in g-vg it is still a common card, not 10% of a bajillion dollar card.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

A lot of dealers try to pull the same thing when pricing the 1952 Topps Pafko - I've seen VG condition Pafko's priced in the thousands.

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Posted By: J Levine

A few years back I was at a show and was quoted a price on a T-212 that I thought was very high. He said it was a percentage of book...Being the pain in the butt that I am, I asked what book...he groped around under the table and produced the SCD price guide...I told him to look it up for me...he was totally irritated and actually told me to get away from his table. I went to the next table, got a price guide and looked it up myself...I then walked back to his table and in front of several customers mentioned what an honest dealer he was because he did say that the card was a percentage of book value, it just happened to be 115% of book value. I then walked away...rudeness and a complete lack of knowledge always makes me nuts...granted I may have lost him some business but I feel that I saved some collectors some grief and maybe (big maybe) the dealer learned a lesson.

-Joshua

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Posted By: BillL

Had to write everything down on paper before I typed this so that I could remember everything I want to say.
My dealing days were a while ago, when prices were based as a % of HBV. I didn't own a 3-price guide. My market also bought by %'s - flea markets and small local shows. Many of my customers were not collectors - relatives buying for someone else, Christmas, favorite player/team, one-shot deals, etc.
If someone can't justify their price to me, I could not justify buying from them. My pricing was usually based/justified/available as a % of HBV. The exceptions, as noted by others, are many.
Known sp's, market variances, star power, etc. all influenced my pricing. Also, my price source was always readily available for verification. The knowledgible collector understood, the novice had it laid out for them.

Jay - I'm a little confused (see if I can remember this correctly) "If you are collector, you better damn well know the market for what you collect." and one paragraph later "..telling a novice the high book on a VG will do nothing but confuse him or make him think that card is more costly than it actually is." Based on your first statement, it appears that your second statement wouldn't matter to you at all if that is what happens. But, if you tell a novice the HBV of a VG card and explain that the condition equals 20-25% of HBV, then he will quickly learn how to value many cards. Just telling the novice "$30", with no basis, just adds to the confusion.

As for overpriced #1 cards, r/c's etc., I certainly agree with the other posts. They fall under the exceptions noted above. If selling, know your market. If buying, do your homework.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The only thing you need to tell novice is that the price is based upon the condition and the current market. If they want to chat a bit about the nuances of pricing, I'll go into detail.

The sad thing is that price guides use a percentage of NM becuase it make it easier to produce prices for 100s of thousands, if not millions of different cards, rather having to take the time to produce truely accurate guides.

Using high book value is akin to the scam several prominent dealers used to love to use in the 80s. They would take out huge ads in SCD saying they were buying cards from a given set for an insane amount of money. When you called, you would be told that they already bought all the cards they could use/afford. In reality, they had, but they had bought before they placed the buy ad. Then used the ad to justify the their outrageous selling prices.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: hankron

Near where I grew up there was an automobile dealer. The 70-something owner had been around the block, and saw each year's factory bells and whistles and thises and thats. If a customer asked for something that this owner felt was a waste of the customer's money or the customer otherwise didn't need, he wouldn't sell it to them. He wouldn't recommend against the customer buying it, he would simply refuse to sell it to them. If they wanted it, they would have to find another dealer.

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Posted By: BillL

"The only thing you need to tell novice..." ???
What a charming attitude. You need to tell the novices everything! When they want to "chat a bit", do you climb out of your throne or down from your horse?
Yes, I am truly sad about the inaccurate price GUIDES that use basic concepts for pricing.
But, I am truly glad that I don't have to pay $1,000/month for accurate GUIDES and rent a truck to move it around.
How many times did you call those ads? How many times did you actually buy from them? First, I don't see the scam.
If they didn't buy from you, all you were out was the phone call. If you didn't buy from them, you didn't buy overpriced cards. Outrageous selling prices occur with everything. I don't remember being required to pay them for collectables.
IMO, there is a much greater scam potential buying from someone who prices on "the current market" versus someone using a recognized GUIDE, with recognized qualifyers. The current market might be %200 of HBV. But, before I decide to buy or not, I will want to know what the HBV actually is and what qualifyers are driving the value up.
The condition/grading discussion/argument goes on forever.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bill L, I don't know if you've ever worked a show as a dealer, but you don't have the luxury of being able to stop and talk to ever novice that comes to your table. If they want to know more, I am more than willing to talk to them. But I am not going to grab them by the arm and keep them from walking away before I get a chance to educate them. You have to pick and chose your battles.

As for the scam I mentioned, no, I never bought anything from them. Why would I? How many times did I offer them cards? About 3 or 4 times before I figured out the scam. No, they didn't force anything pay their outrageous prices, but they created an artificial market based on lies. This is what a scam artist does, whether they are selling baseball cards or swamp land in Louisiana.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: BillL

Jay -
I thought that you, of all people, would remember me mentioning several times that I was a smalltime dealer, several years ago.
As for talking to novices, I was interested in being able to provide educated, fact-based answers to their questions. I wasn't teaching a class.
"..pick and choose your battles." Interesting choice of words, but not surprising.
Thanks for the lesson on scams. Who'd a thunk it?
"artificial market" - I don't think they cornered or created one. A small stretch for truth-in-advertising. Just a marketing ploy, which didn't work on us. Seems so innocent compared to the hijacked/shilled stuff on e-bay.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

IMHO: The high book quote coupled with an opening price that is not in line with the book used is where I get crazy. If you're gonna claim it is $200 in nm and it is vg, you'd better damned well not open it at $100.