1951 Bowman Counterfeit Question

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Posted By: John Bomgardner

Hi,

I just purchased a Mickey Mantle 1951 Bowman Rookie Card and am worried that it may be counterfeit. I paid $3,550 and am really worried. Can you tell me how to exactly see if it is counterfeit.



Thanks,

John Bomgardner

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Posted By: mrc32

Send it in to be graded and see...or post a pic here and we'll try and help.

Getting it graded by PSA or sgc is your best bet.

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Posted By: John Bomgardner

It is graded by PSA already and it is a 5. Does PSA miss counterfeits like this one. It is recently graded.

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Posted By: John Bomgardner

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Posted By: John Bomgardner

It is a very nice card for the grade and has no wrinkles or creases at all. This is my second Mantle 1951 and it is nice. God I hope PSA would not grade a counterfeit.

Thanks,

John

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Posted By: Jon

What makes you think the card is fake? This must be some discerning fact that has bothered you. Othwerise, what made you questions the card's authenticity?

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Posted By: Anonymous

It seems like a nice card. I don't know. Has PSA gotten more strict on their grading standards lately?

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Posted By: Marc S.

why do you think the card is fake? Though every grading company makes mistakes -- it is rare that mistakes are made on cards of such importance. You must have some reason to think it is fake, don't you?

I am assuming it is the one from this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=2725132423&rd=1

Of course -- you have brought this card up twice on the PSA Message boards over the past month:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=185464&highlight_key=y&keyword1=mantle

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=187221&highlight_key=y&keyword1=mantle


On those posts -- many said you could just send it back to PSA for review and re-holdering. That was a few weeks ago. Have you taken any action on that yet? It seems like you keep asking for advice on this same card over and over. Why don't you do something about it at this point and report your results -- whatever they may be.


As for the seller -- he is top-class, and I have had many positive transactions with him in the past, and have no reason to doubt his integrity.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Actually it is the "same" Mantle card but it is not really. If you would look closely you would see the different PSA numbers. I own both and will be posting one on ebay tonight. I like both of them. I will not reholder the card because I am concerned about ripping the card out of the holder and doing damage. Also, the postal service is not exactly the greatest. They see insurance on the package and they say "not my problem if its broken or ruined" I am sorry if I ask the same thing about two of the "same" card.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<Actually it is the "same" Mantle card but it is not really. If you would look closely you would see the different PSA numbers. I own both and will be posting one on ebay tonight. I like both of them. I will not reholder the card because I am concerned about ripping the card out of the holder and doing damage. Also, the postal service is not exactly the greatest. They see insurance on the package and they say "not my problem if its broken or ruined" I am sorry if I ask the same thing about two of the "same" card.>>

If you are that concerned about authenticity -- why are you selling one if you are not sure if the card is authentic? I'm guessing that you want to keep the "real" one for yourself and sell the one you have questions about. But if you really have questions about a multi-thousand dollar card, don't you think you have at least some sort of obligation to resolve those concerns before you sell the card?

Also -- though I agree that the postal service sometimes does have problems, I have generally found there never to be a problem with registered and insured mail. Packaged properly, I believe the packages travel under lock and key with a very detailed audit trail -- so if someone steals or damages your card, it should not be too hard to prove. I've never had any damage with registered and insured USPS mail.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I am concerned and paranoid like everyone else. and when you buy the card online and do not see it first you tend to have buyers regret. I trust psa and I have heard stories about things and problems. If I seem to be a bit paranoid then shoot me. I am sure you have had buyers regret.

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Posted By: Hankron

Having read your posts, I'm not sure if you're concerned about the card's authenticity as much as it's grade (WIWAG?).

As for as authenticity goes (i.e., is it a counterfeit): This may not be satisfactory to you, but it doesn't change the fact: If you want to determine if the suspect is a card is a counterfeit, the ideal thing to do is to remove the two Mantles from their holders and directly compare them. This includes with a black light, but also with your naked eye. You should be aware of any natural differences that appear in the Mantles/Bowmans (i.e. changes in stock), and also compare them to a few a few commons). A counterfeit would have one and more than one significant difference. Upon such comparison, the vast majority of counterfeits are obvious, even to a non-collector.

I don't deal with graded cards and don't know how the plastic masks the qualities of a card, but I would think that many counterfeit Mantles would by apparent by comparision even if it's still in the in the holder.

It would seem that the practical thing to do is to have the card reholdered, either by PSA or other reputable grader. If the card reholders at the same grade, it will benifit you financially as you will be able to tout this in your sale/auction (I would guess that one of your worries is that it won't reholder at the same grade). If you aren't willing to reholder it, exaine it yourself or have someone else compitent examine it, there's really nothing else to you can do.

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Posted By: Hankron

So as not to come across as gloom and doom, the vast majorities of counterfeits are easily identifiable to someone familiar with the issues, especially if the collector has some sample cards for comparison. There are often these theories of some super breed of counterfiets that even experts can't identify-- which is crap.

Even a 7 your old who inhereted and enjoys looking at his grandpa's 1962 Topps collection, will identify virtually all counterfiets because they simply don't look like grandpa's cards.

The common problem that collectors (and dealers and auction houses) have is not when they buy a card from an issue they have not seen in person before.

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Posted By: MW

John,

If you want a second opinion, bring both cards to SGC and ask them if they'll cross them over. If they will, there's nothing to worry about.

If you are worried about fraudulent PSA holders, carefully check the edges for tampering and make sure the front of the PSA label matches the reverse.

Ideally, an experienced dealer or hobbyist could examine the card(s) and spot any problems. There are many who post on this forum who would qualify.