any thoughts on this Susini "Speaker"?

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings) 

I think it's Eddie Collins.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1987716242&indexURL=2#ebayphotohosting

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but it ain't collins--he had ears like a bat.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

can anyone tie the black (or dark) uniform to the '15 Red Sox (or a barnstorming tour)????

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I thought a close-up pic might remove the doubts some people have about it being Speaker. I've tried very hard to see how it might look like Eddie Collins and I just don't see it. To me it looks as much like Joan Collins as Eddie Collins. I'd put a smiley face instead of this sentence if I knew how. Maybe one of the ones that winks.

I guess what I'm saying is...it's Speaker.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

The seller mentions that he referenced Marc Okkonen's "Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century" to try to determine who the player is, but there's no good match for the uniform. I tried the same exercise and came up with this:

- Only the White Sox of 1914/1915 wore a solid color (blue) road uniform with caps with vertical white stripes. However, they didn't have an emblem on the sleeve and the socks (solid white with one stripe high up) don't match this player.

- The 1913-15 Boston Braves had solid color blue uniforms with an emblem on the left sleeve, but neither the hat nor the socks match, in this case.

The player in the background may provide a clue, since his uniform (all white with one fat stripe on the socks) is an exact match for the 1915 Boston Red Sox home uniform. Maybe this is Speaker in spring training wearing a non-regular season uniform?

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Posted By: Hankron

My opinion is that the seller's description is accurate. In particular, I beleive that it's Tris Speaker. I can't comment on the uniform, but I own a lot of Speaker photographs and that's what Speaker looks like, both in body and face.

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Posted By: rod

The grey hair may be a clue.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Rod,

I'm interested to hear your thoughts regarding the grey hair being a clue. Can you elaborate?

By the way, for those who don't recognize my eBay ID, I am the seller.

-Ryan

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

This web link looks to indicate that it's Sisler...

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Posted By: Hankron

Ryan, I didn't realize you were the seller. As I earlier noted, I thought your auction description was on the mark. Also, I own one of Speaker cards (as it's real photo, it falls within my collecting sphere) and think it's a swell card. As a photograph specialist, I think it stands on its own as a sharp, though smaller than what I am used to, vintage Cuban photograph of a Hall of Famer.

The gray hair is an indication of the card's, or at least the image (meaning the card maker may have used an earlier image of Speaker). Speaker always had a mature look. By the time he retired, circa 1928, he looked plain old. His face looked like Mickey Mantle's knees felt. This included lots of grey hair. This image, with just a distinguished touch of grey and a more youthful face, would suggest that the image is several years earlier, perhaps from the 1910s.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Yeah Sisler was 22 in 1915 and was his first year with St. Louis. The jpg was labeled hornsis.jpg so I rushed to judgement

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

They both started in 1915 and it would make more sense if the Sasini issue is much later than 1915 if the pictured players are Hornsby and Sisler.

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Posted By: Hankron

The funny thing is, I bought my card from a prominant auction house, and they described it as being from the 1880s. First, it's the wrong type of photograph (gelatin-silver) for the 1880s. Second, and more obvious, the five sided home plate wasn't introduced until 1900. Before then, the home plate was rectangular.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Here's a profile of Sisler from 1928 the only year he played for Washington..



From this it looks like the Susini card is not Sisler. However, it still makes no since that a cuban printer would send out a "pre-rookie" card of Rogers Hornsby in 1915. Unless, Ryan is correct in his belief that the other batter pictured is not Hornsby. It sure looks like a photo of Rogers Hornsby batting.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

www.cmgwww.com/baseball/sisler/image1.jpg

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

RC,

How did Sisler get involved in this?

-Ryan

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

I did a website search and cubanball.com popped up with a picture of the Susini cards. The guy labeled his picture of the two cards "hornsis.jpg" so I assumed that he thought the cards were of Hornsby and Sisler. I'm working on the fly here.

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Posted By: RobertS

I own card #201, and when I bought it from an old time dealer (he was older, his stuff was older, he had been selling for a long time), he said he was told it might be either Speaker or Red Murray.

However, I have a photo of Murray batting and I thought his stance looked somewhat different...in fact, I thought he batted lefty (maybe he was a switch hitter?).

However, this is what I was told, so I thought I would pass it along...

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Robert,

Thanks for the info. Here's a close-up of that one. Maybe someone else can help identify it.

-Ryan

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Maybe a bat expert can give an approximate date of the bat in the photo. From the photos I've seen of Hornsby, he didn't choke up on the bat.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

I have disproved my theory that the cards are Hornsby and Sisler, so you guys take the ball and run with it.

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Posted By: Hankron

RC, you get an A for effort.

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Posted By: fkw

Ive always thought (and heard over the years), the Susini cards are from ca.1910, and the player you have pictured in black is Tris Speaker, the other guy is Red Murray of the NY Giants (righty in light uniform batting). I have owned a couple of each card and never thought the players were anything different. I have seen them listed as being from anywhere from 1909 to 1930, and many names thrown out there as to who the players are. The field and uniforms look right on for a 1910 date in my opinion. This is all my opinion and what Ive heard over the last few years on the cards. nothing's 100% Oh well good luck on the auction. Frank

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Posted By: rod48

Sorry for the delayed response. Speaker was known as the "Grey Eagle" because he turned prematurely grey.Also,I've seen your card publishd somewhere before and it was captioned as Speaker That dark uniform is a bugaboo but barnstormers wore those frquently. I've even seen Cleveland teams pictured in them .

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Posted By: rod48

Sorry for the delayed response. Speaker was known as the "Grey Eagle" because he turned prematurely grey.Also,I've seen your card publishd somewhere before and it was captioned as Speaker That dark uniform is a bugaboo but barnstormers wore those frquently. I've even seen Cleveland teams pictured in them .

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Posted By: runscott

This picture is not Sisler - no way. The batting stance, posture, etc., all point to Speaker. The head also matches up with side views of Speaker that I've seen, but of course there could be someone else who looked just like him from the side.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

The main reason I ventured Eddie Collins is the uniform, which looks like a White Sox roadie, except the stockings don't match. That arm patch is a United States flag, which, it appears from Okkonen's book, was not worn by any teams on the arm except for the Chisox in 1917 and Cleveland the following year. Cleveland didn't have the dark uniforms, the 1917 Chisox had 4 lefty hitters, the pic surely isn't Shoeless Joe or Nemo Leibold, and the other--Eddie Murphy--I have not seen. That leaves Eddie Collins.

I agree it doesn't look quite Collins enough- Adam, I tried to pretend he was having a "good ear day" when that photo was taken. Still, the follow through and form din't look quite Speaker enough for me either, but I hardly consider myself an expert on the subject.
Good discussion, and I guess it's concluded to be Speaker. Still wonder about the uniform, though.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

since the flag arm patches were worn to show support for US troops in WWI, it seems unlikely that the photo could have pre-dated 1917, when the US declared war on Germany.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

It's "Spoke" alright. His 1921 Exhibit card has a nice portrait that looks like this guy. Also the swing looks like his 1927-28 PC backed exhibit swing.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: scgaynor

It is Speaker. The other card has always been an issue of debate between Cuban collectors.

This susini issue was produced between 1917-1919. It is one of a series of sports from different countries.

Scott

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Posted By: jverri01

I had always thought - just by observation, not by any research, that the Speaker card seems to appear more like Clark Griffith. The Cincinatti uniforms and caps were darker, too, like the ones on the player in the image. If you look at the "profile shot" of Griffith in the "with bat" T206 pose, you'll see what I mean. And the gray hair fits, as well.

Just an observation.

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Posted By: runscott

Griffith was kind of a runt. Also, if you look closely at the t206 Griffith you referenced, you'll notice that he bats right-handed and Speaker bats left.

here's a decent Speaker picture for comparison. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1987913066&category=31719