Follow-up on EX-MT

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Posted By: James/jverri01 

Gee, thanks, Brian, for sicking the dogs on me. ; )

Actually, I think folks are taking this way more literally than it is intended to be. As I mention in the listings - there are just way too many cards listed as EX-MT that have creasing, paper loss, holes - whatever. NONE of the cards I listed have creasing, wrinkling, paper loss, holes, etc. Corner wear - sure.

Here is what perplexes me: so many of you "talk down" the grading companies (and I do the same), and are so quick to contest some of their grading (as do I) - yet, when ungraded material is posted, everybody quickly uses the grading company standards as the mechanism by which to compare. ?? Sure, these are not a "PSA 7" - but, many PSA 7's aren't either. ; )

What I am presenting here are EXTREMELY clean cards. Of all of the crap listed on Ebay - trimmed, soiled, miscut, bleached, faded, covered with writing, creased, marked with tire tracks, torn, etc., etc. - these cards are phenomenal. If you are so bothered by corner wear - you are NOT seeing the bigger picture, here. These are SPECIFICALLY the kinds of examples card collectors that HATE grading companies are looking for: clean, single-owner, minimal wear cards.

I'm sorry, but, to me - "Mint" is a concept, nothing more. The guy I got these cards from - and 600 others, is the guy that pulled them from the cigarette packs they came in - when he was a teenager. They have been protected and out of light since then. THIS is the condition most cards pulled from packs were in AT the TIME they were pulled. THAT is what SO many old-timers have told me. THAT is why I consider "mint" a concept. ANY card (to me) that truly looks mint - has been CHOPPED. Cards just DID NOT come out of packs with corners that sharp. DID NOT HAPPEN. I have sat and witnessed (as I am sure you have done as well) countless unopened packs being opened, cards being pulled (whether baseball or not) - and they just DON'T come out as clean as this. A PSA 9, anything above SGC 88 - has been TAMPERED WITH. That is just my opinion - but it is one that comes from very reliable and objective first-hand sources. I am in my 30's - so I can not ABSOLUTELY say high-end cards are trimmed. BUT, the evidence seems to be there - and EVERY old-timer I have spoken with completely backs this up.

Maybe EX-MT as a designation is an overstatement - but, if it is, truthfully - by how much? Not alot. It is merely a matter of the subjective determination of how accelerated the corner wear is or is not. YES - I have nicer cards than these, so, perhaps, these are more EX/EX+ - by some people's standards. To me - these are unaltered gems.

I would rather have one of these than a trimmed card that is sitting in a pretty plastic slab, with a high number marked on it, any day. Sorry, but my confidence in any grading company's ability to assess these (yes, I am including NASA, Mr. Calderon) is diminshing at a rate that even exceeds my ever increasing sarcasm.

Respectuflly,
James/jverri01

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Posted By: runscott

...so you bought 600 of these from a guy that's about 108 years old now. Quite a smoker, that kid, and he put the cards straight in a cigar box and never played with them or exposed them to sunlight? That teen-age kid had a lot of self-control and foresight for 1909-11...and a great memory for his current age of 108 - Great find, James! After saving them for 90 years and protecting them so carefully, why did he give them to you? I see these old geezers hobbling around every now and then and I know they've got a cigar box stash of cards somewhere, but most of the ones I talk to can never remember where they buried them.

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Posted By: runscott

lol

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Posted By: leon

I hear what you say but still have a hard time believing that cards came straight from the pack in vg condition. Did the cigarette makers know that 90 years later we would think they were in too good of condition when we paid huge amounts for them so they rounded the corners for us? I am a "relative" novice here but would appreciate a little extrapolation of how/why they inserted vg-ex cards in packs of smokes....best regards

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Posted By: Jay Miller

This is rationalization at its worst. Way to go Brian!

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Posted By: jay behrens

James, from personal experience of opening 50 packs of Honest Long Cuts with t205s in them, I can say with great confidence that cards from this era DO come out of the pack in NM or better condition. I have also seen a Piedmont pack opened with a t206 in it and that card was also NM with a couple of minor stains when it came from the pack.

Jay

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Posted By: brian

I agree with you Jay, I've seen multiple packs opened which contained nm cards as well as a few which were exmt, but have never seen any with soft vg corners.
I've also purchased cards from finds which were nm+ , 20 years before grading companies made trimming commonplace.
50 packs of T205's? That's incredible, I thought I was fortune, but 15 packs is not even close to 50. I would love to talk to you about packs sometime.
be well brian

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Posted By: brian

Sorry for the mistakes in my post, fortunate as opposed to fortune. My 2 fingered typing stinks.
be well brian

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Posted By: BcD

justice...and a comment from MW !

look,we all see different things but the standards of grading do not and did not change because of any of the aforementioned factors. James,no offense but a lot of guys on here have much greater experience and $$$ than you or I.That should be obvious to you. And Leon is turning into Mr. pre war unique,rare and type card king and seems to be gathering good information over the past year on the factory options and manners of production on these cards. The above poster has put some time into examining pre war card conditions and variables.It seems when you spend lots of money,the folks you buy things from disclose bits and pieces of history that eventually cause you to have enough to draw real and reasonable conclusions about history. That is what many of the well known historian dealers do.James,you have not been at it as long as you would like us all to believe I think and you probably have not doled out the kind of money some on this board have to secure information that is truly not fabricated.Your a smart guy but not a historian when it comes to cards and until you converse with 200 more well known collectors and forked over another 100k ( seemingly the only way the ones 'in the know' initially meet you anyway),your thoughts sound good but are fabricated based on your limited exposure...I realize you have 1000 feedbacks but how many of the folks on this board with knowledge have you NOT met through e-bay? A bunch of us have known each other for years before e-bay and it really does take that long to gather enough consistant information to have confidence in your story....I do hope you sell those cards but the descriptions are still false,overstated and sensationalized...

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Posted By: vorthian

James:

<< I am amazed by some of the grading I have seen that has been done by SCD. Do they do the grading in-house, or out-source it and just allow the SCD name to be added? I don't mean to be overly-harsh, as I tend to be a bit conservative in condition assessment...>>

When you stated the aforementioned, you should have known that you were opening yourself up to responses and critiques if your cards were not "conservative". Subjective in grading cannot apply to one case and not in another, when trying to assess condition.

You speak about the authenticity of these kinds of cards fresh from a pack and slabbed SGC 88 or PSA 9. No offense, but that takes away from what you were defending (the condition of YOUR cards) and opens another can of worms...

<< and they just DON'T come out as clean as this. A PSA 9, anything above SGC 88 - has been TAMPERED WITH. That is just my opinion - but it is one that comes from very reliable and objective first-hand sources. >>

Yes, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Since YOUR sources say that PSA 9 / SGC 88 copies have been TAMPERED with, does that mean Mike Baker and Derek Grady are incompetant in their authentication and grading abilities? I know both of their grading abilities and they seem to know the qualifications for an EXMT card better than some eBay sellers.

You know what's odd? The people that are against the grading companies are usually the ones that overgrade.

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Posted By: MW

Actually, I think everyone is being far too tough on James.

Recent conjecture (can't quite call it research), wholly based on James' T206 listings, has led me to believe that Sweet Caporal and Piedmont (among others) actually employed an enthusiastic group of rag-tag teenagers to pre-handle many of the cigarette cards before they were inserted in packs. Rumor has it that they would also be vicariously tempted to pocket a "rare" Wagner when it came their way. Perhaps some of these Wagners are now the ones making their way onto eBay, after being passed down from one generation to the next.

And you guys thought you knew it all

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Posted By: Mike ,you are correct as usual !

For cut and pasting everything by everybody all day and night long! Mr. Sticky fingers is obssesed with quoting others akin to Eddy the Echoe! hee hee hee it's also boring...

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't undetstand why people are getting on vorathian about cut'n paste of previous posts. I do it on occasion myself just to make sure people know what I am refering to/talking about. It just makes following the conversation easier.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

Jay --

He does it in some of his emails too. It's just a bit annoying from time to time, that's all. I did enjoy Vorthian's recap of the Sun Times Show, however.

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Posted By: runscott

<<I don't undetstand>>
I don't get it - what do you mean by this?

<<why people are getting on vorathian>>
What are 'why people'? Did you mean 'white people'? Why are you bringing race into this? Why would these people want to get on Vorthian? What do you mean by 'get on'?

<<I do it on occasion myself>>
Are you talking about what I think you are?!?

<<It just makes following the conversation easier.>>
Does it?

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Posted By: leon

I get "on" too but that's a hole nuther story......pun intended..(man, that was bad).... just a little humor for the morning....as far as recapping others emails, who cares? If Darth Vador wants to recap that's his business....sometimes it's amusing to see how we/they/I contradict ourselves....although a lot of times it is easy to take a sentence out of context that way.... I know I have done it before....but when James says he grades "conservatively" when knocking SCD then puts his vg, vg-ex cards on ebay touting ex-mt it sort of makes ya wonder.... regards all..

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Posted By: runscott

I think Steve can take a joke. But Leon, I hope there aren't any minors reading your posts who aspire to becoming vintage card collectors - they might end up like "El Guapo".

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Posted By: petecld

A little compassion. Obviously James has a sever case of "Scott-Elkins-itis". You know, it's that horrible condition that eats away at the credibility.

The first sign of this disease is a criticism of others, followed by bouts of severe self-righteous defensiveness when held to the same standard they expect from others.

Remember, I'm not a doctor...I just play one on the chat boards.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

whom I've seen naked. . .

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

he contracted "something" from his Hungarian girlfriend he took in from his local bar and had to sell his entire collection and now has deleted himself from e-bay! His collecting and haggling over the history of Wagner T-206's...is effectively over!


http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewBidItems&userid=t206uzitback&completed=0&sort=3&all=1&rows=25

see!

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Posted By: vorthian

<< It's just a bit annoying from time to time, >>

You know what's more annoying?

(and it happened about an hour ago)

Fouling a 90+ mph fastball off the top of your foot! Ouch.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

You ESR !!!