Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by drcy

When I used eBay way back when, I'd have my bookmarked sellers. I collected unusual and rare items (photos, autographs, memorabilia), and I bookmarked them because I knew they were experts (authenticity), would have interesting stuff and were reliable. Others used them similarly and I'm sure the sellers got healthy prices.

However, that's different than selling a readily available 1990 Leaf Frank Thomas for 2x the price.

I think what you are describing illustrates Snowman's theory, but also why it beggars belief for it to be accurate in describing a few dealers astonishingly higher returns on same cards.

Most people who find their way to 'major' ebay sellers do so by happenstance.
They spend ever increasing time on ebay looking at one item which leads to another, and as they build their buy knowledge and indeed add items to their collection, they are exposed more and more to better material and scarcer more desirable and price rich pieces.
The very act of going through this 'learning' process on ebay sets very quickly eBay's greatest strength for any prospective buyer: the ability to find items you want first, but even more importantly with so many contributing sellers you will find quite a number of the same item, and can compare condition and price etc before choosing your buy.

It's this very nature of comparative shopping that makes it hard to believe one eBay Seller could so massively get higher prices than the thousands of competing sellers.
Its audience has already learned how to search on eBay, how that often takes time to find the thing you want, how you can assign a price in your mind you're willing to pay and where that will meet up with how often the item shows and how much you need it...it's all part of the game on eBay.

That card collectors, who know there are other copies at same grade showing up regularly on eBay through different sellers, at prices sometimes 30-40% less, would just blythely say sure, "I'm happy to pay overs, even though I know I might someday want/or have to sell it again, and may not get my money back or make less on it that I otherwise can".....to be what? Brand or seller loyal? Where there's no incentive to be?
I just don't believe it.

More eyes giving greater opportunity to MAXIMIZE prices sure, but this collector space is sooooooo filled with assured professional sellers dispensing so much of this stuff, you'd have to be a nuffy to only buy at a mark up.
Nuffies here and there affecting some prices, sure, I could believe it.
But it's the very steady nature of PWCC and Probstein prices achieved over others that doesn't gel with the nature of the card market.

[Snowman]

If you guys were to guess what percentage above-average selling prices that PWCC and Probstein get for their auctions, what would you guess?

For example, say a card usually sells for $500 on average, does it sell for a 20% premium at PWCC at $600, or a 5% premium at $525, or does it sell for 100% premium and go for double at $1000? What do you think the "PWCC and/or Probstein effect is"?

<5%
5-10%
10-25%
25-50%
>50%

[Peter_Spaeth]

All PWCC/Probstein cards are not the same. There are at least two distinct groups, those consigned by collectors and smaller dealers, and those consigned by card doctors/larger dealers. I would bet the stats are very different for those two groups.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All PWCC/Probstein cards are not the same. There are at least two distinct groups, those consigned by collectors and smaller dealers, and those consigned by card doctors/larger dealers. I would bet the stats are very different for those two groups.

This statement is very accurate in my view. PWCC cards did sell for incredibly high prices relative to other cards of the same grade. However, if you look at VCP prices, often PWCC cards go for extremely low prices. Not every card is shilled and prices were lower in some cases because people didn't bid and were afraid they might get run up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

This statement is very accurate in my view. PWCC cards did sell for incredibly high prices relative to other cards of the same grade. However, if you look at VCP prices, often PWCC cards go for extremely low prices. Not every card is shilled and prices were lower in some cases because people didn't bid and were afraid they might get run up.

At one point, as I wanted to see for myself, I consigned some decent cards including a nice Jim Brown rookie. Too small a sample to mean much, but not one went high and several went really low.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At one point, as I wanted to see for myself, I consigned some decent cards including a nice Jim Brown rookie. Too small a sample to mean much, but not one went high and several went really low.

Careful you'll now be labeled in the "just sour grapes" bunch.


Eyeballs and "safe" packaging account for the higher prices.


I can count dozens of times when I've seen an inexperienced seller list a great card, and it sells for fair market.


My guess is the attempt at asking for a "value above the norm" would be countered with " but all the buyers are avoid +/- 10% sales tax due to the vault. So there's that excuse on the table

[drcy]

I think you look at trends rather than specific sales.

It seemed obvious that there was broad shilling going on at MastroNet because of the unusual pricing (a result of bidding) throughout the auction. The bidding/pricing patterns throughout the auction were unlike other auctions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

This statement is very accurate in my view. PWCC cards did sell for incredibly high prices relative to other cards of the same grade. However, if you look at VCP prices, often PWCC cards go for extremely low prices. Not every card is shilled and prices were lower in some cases because people didn't bid and were afraid they might get run up.

I think overall most cards probably weren't shilled, or altered. The problem is how, as a bidder, do you know the difference if you're interested in a particular card? For a while I could actually ask Brent and our little shorthand was, is this a collector or dealer card? And he would tell me. But he eventually decided he didn't want to do that any more -- maybe he was sick of my posts lol.