"PSA Guarantee" - What would you do?

[STL1944]

Curious to know the groups opinion on something. I recently discovered that one of my PSA cards of Hugh "Fireman" Casey graded as a PSA 8 is probably trimmed (see photo's below for specifics). I have owned the card for over a year (I bought it already graded) but recently bought a raw version of the same card which made me think that my card is trimmed (on three sides!!!).

My question is, what do I do now? I can:

A) Try to find the seller on eBay and see if I can get a refund
B) See if I can take advantage of PSA's "guarantee"
C) Do nothing

Couple of facts to consider:

1) The 1947 Tip Top Bread cards were exactly that... cards put in with loaves of bread. As such, the condition of them is usually poor. Of the 900 or so cards PSA has graded, 70% of them are PSA 4 or less. In fact, there are only two PSA 8's ever graded (with none higher) - the one below and one other

2) I am trying to build the first ever PSA registry set of the 1947 Tip Tops (at least that I know of)

3) PSA's SMR values the card at $135 which is way low for what I would expect a PSA 8 to be valued. There are simply not a lot of transactions. If I took advantage of the guarantee, I would not be able to replace the card

My gut is to get my other copy graded, keep the PSA 8 but pull it out of the registry to be fair to others.

Thoughts?

[JollyElm]

Were all the 1947 Tip Tops a standard size (the way Topps cards are 2.5" x 3.5") or was there variation?

[riggs336]

How do the other Tip Tops in your collection compare size-wise to the two Casey's?

[oldeboo]

Interesting dilemma. Not being familiar with this issue, I'm not sure if there are variations in size. If they all were relatively the same size that thing looks MAJORLY trimmed. Here are a few of my opinions in general.

A) Try to find the seller on eBay and see if I can get a refund
- I don't think it's exactly fair to a seller that you realized you goofed up and trusted PSA a year, or several years, after the fact.

B) See if I can take advantage of PSA's "guarantee"
- No guarantee they honor their guarantee. I would be thrilled to get SMR value back on a card that was majorly altered if it ends up being an option. Otherwise, this card is worth, what, a couple bucks trimmed? It is common knowledge that PSA numerically grades A LOT of trimmed cards. I wouldn't be shocked if they tell you sorry for your luck.

C) Do nothing
- Wouldn't seem right to keep that in your registry. I would much rather have your ungraded card put in a slab if you're determine to have a registry set. If you only care about the number on the slab instead of what the card looks like, by all means, it makes sense to leave it in the registry set.

[swarmee]

Send it in for the grade guarantee and give them your recommended value. If you purchased it for a certain price, you can tell them that. Definitely looks trimmed; never should have gotten a number. When I first looked at it, I thought it was a 1949 Bond Bread, not Tip Top. ;-)

[swarmee]

Oh, and one of the Blowout guys posted your card over there and said your main problem is that this is a counterfeit/reprint. The cropping of the photo directly over the name is different in the real card (look at the button /ribbon under Dodgers placement).
So you could provide them with that information as well.

[bnorth]

Option C, do nothing. If you collect enough PSA slabs to worry about the registry, you like all the others have altered(possibly fake) cards in your collection. Also no reason not to have it in your registry set for the same reason as above.

I like the idea of grading so novice collectors don't get screwed by fake/altered cards. Unfortunately that is not how it works in the real world. To collect graded cards you have to be more of a expert not to get taken advantage of.

[oldeboo]

Here's the widely produced reprint. I'm curious to see what the back looks like. Almost seems like they took a reprint, then chopped off where it says reprint, and PSA couldn't detect it. No wonder it got such a high grade!

If you look closely at your PSA 8 the text even matches the reprint. It seems that it is different text than your original ungraded card. As swarmee mentioned, the cropping is off too. Unless there are two variations, it looks almost certainly to be a reprint.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Here's the widely produced reprint. I'm curious to see what the back looks like. Almost seems like they took a reprint, then chopped off where it says reprint, and PSA couldn't detect it. No wonder it got such a high grade!

If you look closely at your PSA 8 the text even matches the reprint. It seems that it is different text than your original ungraded card. As swarmee mentioned, the cropping is off too. Unless there are two variations, it looks almost certainly to be a reprint.

LOL, at least it was a high tech alteration that got by them this time.

[oldeboo]

This helps to show it a little more. Matches up with where it would of been cut. Seems plausible at least. Whenever you buy a card in a PSA holder it's highly advisable to check for commonly available reprints.

What does the jury say?

[oldeboo]

The questionable button and text.

[Exhibitman]

Never be cheated...

[STL1944]

First let me give a shout out thank you to Oldeboo! Fantastic analysis and I think you are spot on! If I ever need a private investigator, I will PM you! Thank you.

I went and measured the card and it measured 5.3cm x 7.5cm. I picked 7-8 other 1947 Tip Tops out of a pile and, sure enough, they all measured 5.7 x 7.6.

I think Oldeboo/Blowout is right on in that this was a reprint that was trimmed to remove the reprint text.

I did some poking around and found out:

1) Turns out I bought the card from... wait for it... wait for it.... PWCC!
2) Interestingly, the only other card that is a PSA 8 is the Yogi Berra rookie card. What are the odds that it did not get the same "hair cut" as well.
3) I did go back and measure all of the PSA 5, 6 & 7's looking for signs of a reprint of trimmed. The good news is that I did not see any that looked strange.


I am going to reach out to PSA and see what they say. I will post updates here.

[Exhibitman]

Send it back to PWCC--they are doing refunds to avoid jail time, allegedly.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by STL1944

First let me give a shout out thank you to Oldeboo! Fantastic analysis and I think you are spot on! If I ever need a private investigator, I will PM you! Thank you.

I went and measured the card and it measured 5.3cm x 7.5cm. I picked 7-8 other 1947 Tip Tops out of a pile and, sure enough, they all measured 5.7 x 7.6.

I think Oldeboo/Blowout is right on in that this was a reprint that was trimmed to remove the reprint text.

I did some poking around and found out:

1) Turns out I bought the card from... wait for it... wait for it.... PWCC!
2) Interestingly, the only other card that is a PSA 8 is the Yogi Berra rookie card. What are the odds that it did not get the same "hair cut" as well.
3) I did go back and measure all of the PSA 5, 6 & 7's looking for signs of a reprint of trimmed. The good news is that I did not see any that looked strange.


I am going to reach out to PSA and see what they say. I will post updates here.

It was bad enough that we have to double check graded cards for alterations - now we have to double-check them to make sure they are real!!

My decision not to do business with PWCC is reinforced!

[scooter729]

As much as they might be guilty of other things, I don't think we should be blaming PWCC for selling this card. If someone consigned this to them or any other auction house, I wouldn't necessarily expect the auction house to do an additional thorough investigation of its own if it's already in a PSA holder. (Of course, I would expect an auction house to catch the '14 CJ reprint, but that's a whole other story....)

Should PWCC give a refund on this, once presented with the evidence? Maybe - hard to say. But I can't blame them for selling this one in the first place....

Scott S@r!@n

[swarmee]

Card is obviously narrow when you just look at it. Tip Tops are like Goudeys, wider than normal cards. Even if they didn't know it wasn't real, PWCC should have known it was trimmed when they evaluated it for a pretty sticker. Remember, Brent inspects *EVERY* card up for auction to see which ones are deserving of pretty stickers.
PWCC will refund, but the SMR is worth even more. I'd still claim the Grade Guarantee from PSA or auction it off on the board. I'd pay $50 for it, to start the bidding off.
Another card to add to the pile we could make PSA/PWCC shirts for card shows with.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by scooter729

As much as they might be guilty of other things, I don't think we should be blaming PWCC for selling this card. If someone consigned this to them or any other auction house, I wouldn't necessarily expect the auction house to do an additional thorough investigation of its own if it's already in a PSA holder. (Of course, I would expect an auction house to catch the '14 CJ reprint, but that's a whole other story....)

Should PWCC give a refund on this, once presented with the evidence? Maybe - hard to say. But I can't blame them for selling this one in the first place....

Scott S@r!@n

Auction houses, like TPG hold themselves out as being "experts"
A cursory measurement of a card that looks narrow right off, should be enough to make anyone take a longer look.

If a card is in a box of hundreds or more, ok, a fake or altered card sliding through is acceptable. If it's a single graded card that's supposedly one of the two best known, that alone should prompt closer examination.

But then, PWCC routinely works with people who alter cards, so not looking at all closely is just business as usual.

[swarmee]

PSA is slow to knock this out of their cert system.
https://www.psacard.com/cert/07082357

PSA Certification #07082357
According to the PSA database, the requested certification number is defined as the following:

ITEM INFORMATION
Certification Number 07082357
Reverse Cert Number/Barcode No
Year 1947
Brand TIP-TOP BREAD
Sport BASEBALL CARDS
Card Number
Player HUGH CASEY
Variety/Pedigree
Grade NM-MT 8
SMR Price Guide Value $135
PSA Auction Prices Realized:
Date Price Auction House Lot Number
5/8/2019 $55.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352651764398
Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including Top Top Set

[STL1944]

I emailed PSA about the issue and am waiting to hear back. I will post updates here.

Thanks all!

[HRBAKER]

SMH

Hope this works out for you.

[STL1944]

Based on this thread, I went back and looked through my other 1947 Tip Top graded cards... sure enough, I found another card which I believe is a reprint and trimmed. Same situation, the reprint was trimmed to remove the "reprint" label on the back of the card, was submitted and graded.

I will be moving this one out of my registry as well. I have finally figured out how to submit this issue to PSA. We shall see what they say.

Thank you all for all of the help in figuring this out.

[oldeboo]

Crazy! Glad you caught these and hope you get a suitable resolution.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by STL1944

I recently discovered that one of my PSA cards of Hugh "Fireman" Casey graded as a PSA 8 is probably trimmed (see photo's below for specifics).

My gut is to get my other copy graded, keep the PSA 8 but pull it out of the registry to be fair to others.

Well, I have a few thoughts -

1 - "probably"? Ok, sure.

2 - Based on what a great job they did grading your "8", you should get a "12" on your raw one, so I would absolutely pay them for their opinion on it.

3 - Since your "8" is really trimmed on three sides, which makes it "really" worth less than the fee they will charge for the next opinion you pay them for, what you SHOULD do, is bust it out of the case and thumbtack it to your wall, as a reminder to be more careful about future purchases. OR. You could try to sell it to the guy who owns the Diamondbacks, my understanding is that he pays well for trimmed cards.

Doug "honesty is my only excuse" Goodman

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Send it back to PWCC--they are doing refunds to avoid jail time, allegedly.

Send it under the guaranty. Enough has been made over this F-up on the boards that PSA will honor their guaranty. They rarely do (they would go bankrupt if they honored all mess ups), but they will honor the high profile, egg-on-face ones.

Never get cheated. Indeed.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Send it under the guaranty. Enough has been made over this F-up on the boards that PSA will honor their guaranty. They rarely do (they would go bankrupt if they honored all mess ups), but they will honor the high profile, egg-on-face ones.

Never get cheated. Indeed.

As a side note, I see the Mack is now listed on eBay at $2,297 for anyone interested in having that example in a Card Saver with the ?AUTHTCT label that happened to miss the auction.

[ullmandds]

I'm surprised PSa even returned it??

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

As a side note, I see the Mack is now listed on eBay at $2,297 for anyone interested in having that example in a Card Saver with the ?AUTHTCT label that happened to miss the auction.

LOL, I would have paid 10% of that when it was still in the PSA slab. Wouldn't pay $1 for it now.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Auction houses, like TPG hold themselves out as being "experts"
A cursory measurement of a card that looks narrow right off, should be enough to make anyone take a longer look.

If a card is in a box of hundreds or more, ok, a fake or altered card sliding through is acceptable. If it's a single graded card that's supposedly one of the two best known, that alone should prompt closer examination.

But then, PWCC routinely works with people who alter cards, so not looking at all closely is just business as usual.

I'll say that there's a better than even chance I would've missed that unless I had other cards from the set in hand at the same time. Of course I would own the mistake and take care of the buyer. But though I know a lot about cards there's no way to catch everything.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'll say that there's a better than even chance I would've missed that unless I had other cards from the set in hand at the same time. Of course I would own the mistake and take card of the buyer. But though I know a lot about cards there's no way to catch everything.

To me it's less that the occasional thing slides through, which will happen, but what happens when it does.

The stamp guy I go to... hopefully still present tense, I'm not sure if he or his business has survived.. I saw him take back a coin he'd sold years before. At least 10 years, probably longer. The only question was what the buyer had paid and if they both remembered it the same. They did, check written, coin handed to the kid at the counter to see if he could spot the alteration. (I did, but knowing it was there helped a lot. Generally the are around the mintmark looked "wrong" )

PSA just don't seem to be able to get it done.
With that track record I just don't trust them.

I'd imagine a high grade unfamiliar card, or for that matter any expensive card would be a tough call in some ways. How much to trust the TPG, and how much time to spend checking up on them.