Money in the hobby

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I think people's perspective is shaped by what their goal is with their collection. I have commented many times on your wrestling cards, since I was a huge fan of wrestling growing up. To me, I would derive as much (or more) joy from your Rax Roast Beef set as from a high-grade Andre or Hulk Hogan card from the Wrestling All-Stars set that is worth a couple thousand dollars.

Some of my favorite cards I own are only $200-300 cards, but I like them more than cards that are worth more but could be replaced any day of the week simply by going to eBay.

With $5,000 or $25,000 or even $100,000 to put into one card, I would rather have an absolute rarity than a condition rarity. That's not a criticism of your choice in collecting, but just an observation that many collectors have a different methodology for how they collect.

I personally don't think there is one correct way to collect. Some of my cards are rare and most are rare simply because they are in nice condition. I personally got way more enjoyment out of tracking down that set than I do paying through the nose for some bum in a PSA 10 just to add it to my registry set.

When the topic of money in the hobby came up I really didn't give much thought to wrestling cards other than the highest graded have done the best and continue to do so. The wrestling card market is so small and most cards even in high grade are very affordable. I was speaking more in terms of the major sports as that is where real money is spent and card prices obviously for top level pieces go into the millions.

I personally don't buy the idea that there is going to be some day right around the corner when the demand just fizzles right out. Look how easily the cards Donald Spence sold were absorbed. Cards represent history and just because someone didn't see them play doesn't mean they won't have an interest. The two most expensive cards I have ever seen pictures of are owned by someone in their thirties. Mickey Mantle was retired well before he was even born.

[Exhibitman]

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant $hit to me.
--Public Enemy

Musical tastes definitely differ by region, race, ethnicity, social class, etc. Elvis and Public Enemy are both in the rock n roll HOF for very different reasons and constituencies. Debating the merits of each against the other is meaningless out of context. It isn't baseball stats. Listen to what you like.

As for the actual topic, I agree with most of what David P posted above. I am all about the rarity in what I collect. I don't get a buzz from a mainstream card the way I do from finding some obscure rarity.

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant $hit to me.
--Public Enemy

Musical tastes definitely differ by region, race, ethnicity, social class, etc. Elvis and Public Enemy are both in the rock n roll HOF for very different reasons and constituencies. Debating the merits of each against the other is meaningless out of context. It isn't baseball stats. Listen to what you like.

As for the actual topic, I agree with most of what David P posted above. I am all about the rarity in what I collect. I don't get a buzz from a mainstream card the way I do from finding some obscure rarity.

My nine year old and I love Public Enemy!

[ValKehl]

Being an old fart at age 73, I fondly remember the days of Elvis and the Beatles and greatly enjoy listening to their music on Sirius-XM, but who or what is Public Enemy?

[jb217676]

PE in full effect, Brother!

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Being an old fart at age 73, I fondly remember the days of Elvis and the Beatles and greatly enjoy listening to their music on Sirius-XM, but who or what is Public Enemy?

Thank you, Val. My sentiments as well.

Having said that, I certainly respect others who have tastes that vary from mine. Agree with Adam -- pretty subjective stuff.

Mark

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jb217676

My nine year old and I love Public Enemy!

Me too. Most old school hip hop. Also 70s funk. But I listen to just about everything now and then. A lot of old Brazilian jazz lately. Astrud Gilberto, Jobim, etc. Even Henry Mancini and Alamo Schiffrin are on my play list.

[Leon]

They look like they should be in jail to me.

Originally Posted by jb217676

PE in full effect, Brother!

[jb217676]

Public Enemy still perform live and there all pushing 60 years old. The Rolling Stones of Hip-Hop culture!

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like they should be in jail to me.

Lol

[hangman62]

Clock King was Flavor Flavs father

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

It also seems like there are more problems now than I ever remember and eventually these problems will lead people away from cards.

Not true at all. I remember if you went on any online forum 15 years ago, you'd find all kinds of crazy threads discussing grading companies, auction houses, their employees, etc.

Originally Posted by rainier2004

I guess its just the amount now that makes me so nervous...my gut is starting to bother me about how expensive everything is getting. What would happen if PSA was found to be corrupt tomorrow and theyre name became worthless?

Corrupt is a very broad term, so you're going to have to be a little more specific here. How would PSA found to be corrupt?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Not true at all. I remember if you went on any online forum 15 years ago, you'd find all kinds of crazy threads discussing grading companies, auction houses, their employees, etc.

Yeah but I feel there is more now than there was then. There also seems to be information now then there was 15 years ago. There were less auctions houses, eBay was king with no major sellers like Probstein or PWCC and Mastro and Allen were, well, what they have been proven to be.

Corrupt is a very broad term, so you're going to have to be a little more specific here. How would PSA found to be corrupt?

Corrupt - To act dishonestly to benefit yourself or others either monetarily or by some other compensation. That is my definition, not sure how that compares to Websters. I'm not saying PSA is corrupt, but what if they were? Are the prices for the cards or the flips? The cards have been around for a long time and always posed barrier of entry to the hobby d/t experience and overall knowledge. TRUST in PSA, as the major grader ion the hobby, eliminates those issues knowing their purchase is protected by that flip. SO what if it was found that PSA had a couple card doctors in their back pocket that also worked worth a major seller or 2? What if it was proven they started doing this in 1994...that would be a lot of cards and flips. I'm am NOT saying any of this is true in any remote fashion, but what if it was proven to be. What would happen to the hobby? Values? Total collectors? I think you would see a dramatic shift.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Not true at all. I remember if you went on any online forum 15 years ago, you'd find all kinds of crazy threads discussing grading companies, auction houses, their employees, etc.

Yeah but I feel there is more now than there was then. There also seems to be information now then there was 15 years ago. There were less auctions houses, eBay was king with no major sellers like Probstein or PWCC and Mastro and Allen were, well, what they have been proven to be.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like they should be in jail to me.

Because of?

[Bicem]

Being awesome.

[Leon]

They look like gang members or thugs to me....I don't get out much and prefer it that way. And after watching them I am sticking to my story here and my mantra of the worst thing in America is Parenting....but let's get back to cards please..and back to topic, the hobby is becoming another investment vehicle it seems, especially in the highest graded slabs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Because of?

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like gang members or thugs to me.

Wow.

[Leon]

I watched a few of their youtube videos. We all have our own opinions. Wow.

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Wow.

[Bpm0014]

We all have our own opinions. Wow.

^^^ Exactly. As a huge fan of old school hip hop (but a STRONG dislike of Public Enemy), I'd be willing to bet that most of them have served some form of jail time. So Leon is not far off whatsoever with his assessment. In fact, I'll quote the last guy on the bottom row:

Before the release of It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Professor Griff, in his role as Minister of Information, gave interviews to UK magazines on behalf of Public Enemy, during which he made homophobic and anti-Semitic remarks. However, there was little controversy until May 22, 1989, when Griffin was interviewed by the Washington Times. At the time, Public Enemy enjoyed unprecedented mainstream attention with the single "Fight the Power" from the soundtrack of Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing.

During the interview with David Mills, Griffin made numerous statements such as "Jews are responsible for the majority of the wickedness in the world". When the interview was published, a media firestorm emerged, and the band found itself under intense scrutiny.

[Bpm0014]

And here's some information on the first guy, bottom row:

By the time he dropped out of school in the 11th grade, Flav had been in and out of jail for robbery and burglary. In 1991, Flav pleaded guilty to assaulting his then-girlfriend Karen Ross and served 30 days in jail, lost custody of his children, and sank deeper into addiction. In 1993, Flav was charged with attempted murder and imprisoned for 90 days for shooting at his neighbor. That same year, Flav was later charged with domestic violence, cocaine and marijuana charges.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like they should be in jail to me.

I think that is the look they are going for

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by drcy

I can't think of a good analogy, but modern and antique printing technology are mutually exclusive, just as the words modern and antique are mutually exclusive.

You identify and date the printing technology by looking at the printing at the microscopic level, not the naked eye level. So a digital printing technology (say a laser printer) can make a great reproduction at the naked eye level, but is identified as modern printing under the microscope.

Absolutely, David--and a great couple of articles you authored, by the way--they are much appreciated! Examples made by taking different paths leave different footprints.

Further thoughts: The sky is not falling, nor is the bottom dropping out of the hobby because some prices are rising quite quickly, and it's not only PSA 9's and 10's. The autographed Dietsche Cobb rookie that recently sold in the BST 10/23/16 auction for $26,220.00 previously sold for a fraction of that, $5377.00 in October, 2012. The PSA 5 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb rookie which sold tor $10,875.70 in the May 16, 2015 Heritage auction went for $7852.81 on 3/16/12. Our hobby is simply catching up with other collectible markets such as coins with regard to really rare and significant items, but is doing so IMHO much faster due to the internet. I started collecting again as an adult circa 1990, and you could attend the National, major regional shows, as well as all the locals and not come close to finding all of the rare and significant cards that appear on ebay or in one or more of the major auctions on a relatively frequent basis. The internet, as well as the proliferation of major auction houses, coupled with real and legitimate growth of the hobby has vastly altered the demand versus supply equation with regard to such items, which of course multiplies value in a big way.

This is not to say that some of the big money collectors are not simply investors, but that is not all bad. If you study the history of the coin field, you'll see that when a herd of such investors come in, prices soar (especially for very high numbered mint state items--mint state is numbered from 60-70 in coins-- which may be relatively common in only slightly lower mint state grades), only to fall back when a number of these individuals exit stage right. But some of them stay, decide they like what they've purchased, and become real collectors. The market has then not only recovered, but grown in subsequent years! And what's not to like about vintage cards? They are truly a two-dimensional slice of a 3-dimensional moment in the player's life and career, made contemporaneously with that single instant, and preserved for decades, centuries, and millenniums (?). The card does in fact connect you to the player, and take you back to the time!

Best wishes to all, and much thanks again for the links to the two articles, David,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

"when you consider that the 1903 E107 Mathewson in the REA auction, which went for $144,000, was a $900- $1000 item in 1995--thus increasing in value around 150 times in just over ....."

Larry-I'm not sure where you are getting your 1995 number from. In the mid-1990s I won a beat to hell Mathewson E107 in a David Festberg auction for $2000. When I got it I found that the condition was even worse than described and I called David to say I was returning it. His response? No problem--the under bidder was Larry Fritsch and he'll take it.

I'm just going by a guide issued in 1995 which I have found to be pretty reliable on a consistent basis. But a guide is just a guide. It would not surprise me at all to learn that several very knowledgeable collectors such as yourself and Fritsch would go well over guide when they knew how rare and significant that card was. I purchased a 1925 Gehrig rookie at the '98 National in ungraded VG for $500, and the seller almost begged me to take it at that price. After I verified its' authenticity with my 16X loupe, he really didn't have to try so hard, since I had other information that they had been changing hands at $1100 in the same grade around that time. I hope you kept it!!!

May your collecting bring you bliss,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's always the guys with no money telling the rest of us how dumb we are to spend big money on high grade cards. They have yet to figure out that no one listens to investment advice from guys with no money.

Totally agree with that sentiment, Jeff--and let us hear from you more often!

Highest regards,

Larry

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like gang members or thugs to me....

And after watching them I am sticking to my story here and my mantra of the worst thing in America is Parenting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

So let me get this straight. If I like working out to a PE song, then you're talking shit about my parents and how they raised me?

[Leon]

Why would I care anything about you at all except you are a collector and board member? Please leave any family members out as there is 0 tolerance for it. I made a statement that said I think the biggest problem in America today is parenting. If you don't like that point of view I am fine with it. Why you would bring your family into it I have no earthly idea. Yes, I think most gang members and thugs should have had better parenting. That is a lot of the problem in America today, bad parenting.

Originally Posted by MattyC

So let me get this straight. If I like working out to a PE song, then you're talking shit about my parents and how they raised me?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

Taking the bluff might not be that bad for you down the road. It wasn't that bad for me. My return was much better than 20%.
My wife never thought I wouldn't do it either. Now I just tell her in 20 more years I will do it again.

+1. When you have something that you've held for a lengthy period, and you've made such a good selection regarding the item in question that the auction price is 10, 20, 30, or more times what you paid for it, the 20% juice doesn't make much of a hit at all, from my perspective. At or about 1990, the Standard Catalog, if I'm not mistaken, had the M101-4 and M101-5 Ruth at $1800 in near mint. Now frankly, this was conservative, but I recall bidding in a Sports Collector's Digest auction for one in ungraded ExMt in the mid-nineties. Unfortunately, I bid up to $5500 and it went for $6000, but compare that to the current Heritage auction, where, when I checked a couple of hours ago, the PSA 7 example was at $480,000, including the buyer's premium.

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

Perhaps.
That someone with a lot of years in says it would be really hard must count for something.

One of the good things about paper is that for the most part papermaking back then was a bit less precise than it is now.
There's a variety with the stamps I collect known as "straw paper" Because it's got bits of straw/hay in it. Some people consider it as an entirely different paper. The reality is that if the vat of pulp has to be just fluid enough for the purpose, not too thick, not too watery. But since it's there all day being mixed they have to constantly add water. Back then, if too much water was added they'd throw in a bale or two of hay to thicken it up, resulting in a bit of the batch getting a bunch of hay particles in it.
That's 1870's -80's, and things barely changed at all between then and 1910.

Now it's probably constantly checked by sensors and a computer controls the water content.

Yes, a bunch of that expertise would have been lost. Duplicating it precisely so nobody could tell probably isn't possible. Duplicating it so it's really hard to tell? I think it's doable.

Steve B

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Interesting article about what happened to the Elvis Presley collectable market as the original Elvis fans start dying of old age. Will BB Cards see a similar depression in 20-30 years when people, like me, from the 70/80s boom start dying off?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/sh...eting-in-price

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to rare and significant Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, etc. cards. They've been doing quite well, and virtually none of the buyers of their cards were there to see them play. Baseball and its history are truly Americana at its finest, and I believe the sport itself is so deep in its tradition that this isn't going to change any time soon, certainly not before all of us are long gone.

Good luck in your collecting,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

In the 1960s, almost no adults collected BB cards, T206s could be bought for pennies. Starting in the 70s, the number of people collecting cards increased, more so in the 80s and 90s.

However, the people no longer collecting cards (because they died) was almost non-existent. That is still the case as the number of people born in the 1920's or 30s who collected BB cards as adults was almost nil.

However 20 years from now, people born in the 50s and 60s, will start to die off. A much greater number of those people collected cards, so more cards, from their estates will enter the market. There will be less people buying, unless people born in the 90s and 00s take their place in equal numbers. This will result in a deflated market.

That's been a concern for many years in coins, Bob, and it simply hasn't happened with regard to the rare and significant, most desired examples at all. In addition, I was truly amazed at the number of young people at the 2015 National.

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I would rather have an absolute rarity than a condition rarity. That's not a criticism of your choice in collecting, but just an observation that many collectors have a different methodology for how they collect.

Couldn't agree more with this sentiment!

Regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Elvis was a revolutionary musical performer, an actor, and a larger than life persona. As to the movies, they are not watched today really by anyone. The persona part had its day, but I wouldn't want to be looking for work as an Elvis impersonator these days. As to the music, so what that satellite radio has a station. They have a Jimmy Buffett channel too and I'd hardly argue that he's a revolutionary anything. Elvis sold a ton or records in his day and I am sure his estate sells relatively few these days. Graceland? Nowhere close to the tourist pull it was. (Don't believe the hype from Elvis Presley Enterprises, Inc.) Cool place I've been there twice. Planes are gone. Man has his place in rock and roll history.
Last time I was at Sun Studios all my tour guide wanted to talk about was Johnny Cash.

I think that if you search for "Presley" on cable, you will consistently find a number of his movies for which there are many sponsors. The latter, at least, apparently have good reason to believe that many people will be watching.

May your collecting bring you joy,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

They look like they should be in jail to me.

An interesting commentary on the younger generation(s)?

Regards,

Larry

[mark evans]

I won't belabor the 'Elvis' debate except to make a final point. Others may disagree as to his appropriate place in the pantheon of American pop music, but one thing is clear.

I've been to Elvis's birthplace, what's called a "shotgun shack" in East Tupelo. His family was dirt poor, trust me. For me, this makes his meteoric rise to the pinnacle of stardom all the more admirable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

We all have our own opinions. Wow.

^^^ Exactly. As a huge fan of old school hip hop (but a STRONG dislike of Public Enemy), I'd be willing to bet that most of them have served some form of jail time. So Leon is not far off whatsoever with his assessment. In fact, I'll quote the last guy on the bottom row:

Before the release of It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Professor Griff, in his role as Minister of Information, gave interviews to UK magazines on behalf of Public Enemy, during which he made homophobic and anti-Semitic remarks. However, there was little controversy until May 22, 1989, when Griffin was interviewed by the Washington Times. At the time, Public Enemy enjoyed unprecedented mainstream attention with the single "Fight the Power" from the soundtrack of Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing.

During the interview with David Mills, Griffin made numerous statements such as "Jews are responsible for the majority of the wickedness in the world". When the interview was published, a media firestorm emerged, and the band found itself under intense scrutiny.

Poetry.

"That woman in the corner - cold playin' the role
Leave her ass in the corner till her feet get cold
Knowin' for a fact - that girl is whacked
If you hold your hand out - she'll turn her back
Better walk, don't talk - she's all pretend
Can't be her friend unless you spend
Wall to wall - after all
Get ready to throw only money at the bitch."

[drcy]

Public Enemy did some good, hard hitting music.

I think 99.9% of MTV music videos of are stupid and embarassing, so don't judge music by the videos.

[steve B]

MTV still shows videos?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

I believe that is also possible, and in some cases may be easier than duplicating the paper and ink.

Sometimes I consider giving it a try just to prove it's possible, then I start adding up the cost what I'd need, and the hours I'd have to spend, and for me it's just too expensive without the willingness to actually put a few out there. That's a line I just wouldn't cross, I'd end up as a great technician who wasn't any better than some guy with a laser printer and some cardboard. And more than likely one who was doing time.

Now if some one wanted to sponsor the project as a bit of performance art with all the card/cards and the entire setup destroyed at the end to be sure they weren't sold.......(Adds to list of bad ideas that I'm probably glad there wouldn't be any support for.)

Steve B

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

MTV still shows videos?

I don't own a television, so am going by memory.

[Stampsfan]

Me thinks this thread should be moved to the Watercooler section, as there is less and less about vintage cards, and more about PE, Elvis, Beatles, and parenting.

Seen any good concerts lately?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe that is also possible, and in some cases may be easier than duplicating the paper and ink.

Sometimes I consider giving it a try just to prove it's possible, then I start adding up the cost what I'd need, and the hours I'd have to spend, and for me it's just too expensive without the willingness to actually put a few out there. That's a line I just wouldn't cross, I'd end up as a great technician who wasn't any better than some guy with a laser printer and some cardboard. And more than likely one who was doing time.

Now if some one wanted to sponsor the project as a bit of performance art with all the card/cards and the entire setup destroyed at the end to be sure they weren't sold.......(Adds to list of bad ideas that I'm probably glad there wouldn't be any support for.)

Steve B

No. To match the original dot pattern, you'd need the original plate, or the original photo/negative to make a duplicate "original" plate. All likely long since gone. Try to do it from a different approach and you will leave different footprints at, as David says, the Microscopic level, and I believe at the high power magnification level--say 16x--as well.

Happy collecting,

Larry