Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ted Nugent is a moron, just my opinion....

Absolutely agree, but I still like Snakeskin Cowboy and Stranglehold pretty well. Not as much as I used to 35 years ago, but pretty well.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I don't think George Forman is going to read this .

I got in this thread after the fact. Are we talking about the same "George"? If it's Forman, did you hear him this morning on Mike and Mike? He had nothing but endless praise and admiration for Ali.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Absolutely agree, but I still like Snakeskin Cowboy and Stranglehold pretty well. Not as much as I used to 35 years ago, but pretty well.

Yep, "Free for all" as well. I love his guitar playing when I was a teenager. This guy absolutely annoys me now though. He can't wait to go out and kill animals, and then brag about how many he slaughtered. This type of mentality is a shame in our society.....

[HRBAKER]

'Bout time to introduce some religion into this thread and get all the bases covered. One thing Ted Nugent has on Dick Cheney is that he is a better shot.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Yep, "Free for all" as well. I love his guitar playing when I was a teenager. This guy absolutely annoys me now though. He can't wait to go out and kill animals, and then brag about how many he slaughtered. This type of mentality is a shame in our society.....

I have high praise for any and all who trapped or hunted those great-tasting cows that make up my double-whopper....yum, yum...


but, no, I do not want to see them or hear about their treatment prior to arriving in the bun.

I am, unabashedly, into food consumption, not preparation.



.

[bmarlowe1]

Just a little fact checking with respect to some previous posts:

1) "By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people."

So, I'll name one. Under Clinton, we did a considerable amount of bombing of white Christian Serbia. I guess you forgot. BTW - I think it was a good call.

2) "You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world."

Yes India, a country with nuclear weapons, a huge military, in a perpetual state of near-war with Pakistan. I would add that Gandhi's tactics ultimately prevailed against the U.K., how long do you think he would have survived had Imperial Japan succeeded in South Asia and pushed the Brits out of India?

[whitehse]

I just think it is ironic that this thread and the discussion on Ali's failure to serve his country was started on a day in which we honor and remember those who served and gave their lives on D-Day, 70+ years ago today.

Perhaps we can all take a moment to honor those who served to protect our right to say what we want, when we want it than to argue over an icon that admittedly had some skeletons in his closet but eventually did some good for society.

[HRBAKER]

"Facts are stubborn things."

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Well, both of those wars are arguable I suppose. In the Mexican-American War, annexing Texas was the straw that broke the camel's back since Mexico still claimed Texas as its national territory. In the end, we conquered Mexico City and gained about 50% of Mexico's land, so I guess who invaded who is debatable. That was another extremely controversial, and to some, extremely unpopular, war.

In the Philippine-American War, we had just, and I mean just, gotten the Philippines from Spain after the Spanish-American War and we fought the same people who had been fighting Spain for Philippine independence the year before. They viewed it as a continuation of the same struggle for independence. We didn't. Again, who was the invader really depends on point of view.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I have high praise for any and all who trapped or hunted those great-tasting cows that make up my double-whopper....yum, yum...


but, no, I do not want to see them or hear about their treatment prior to arriving in the bun.

I am, unabashedly, into food consumption, not preparation.



.

Raymond- I hear you. My point about this guy is that he doesn't give a damn about endangered species in Africa, India, and other places. That's what I was referring to. It's one thing when you're talking about deer, hogs, turkeys, etc, as long as it's in hunting regulations....But the other is disgusting in my opinion....

[Bigdaddy]

Hopefully none of us will be held accountable for our lowest action, just as we will not be rewarded solely on our single greatest one.

Ali teetered on the verge of treason to his country and even to his brother (Frazier), but that energy was refocused in his post-boxing career and his life's work reached across those chasms in later years, for the betterment of much of society.

[xplainer]

This thread needs to be over on Blowout.
And there is one there similar.

Ali was a great boxer. Maybe the Greatest. But not a great American.
Check out his links to Malcom X, his sudden conversion to Islam (religion covered) his video clips where he states, the Viet Cong aren't his enemies, the white people are.

The draft dodging isn't really an issue with me. Too many names to add to that list. Start with Kerry, Clinton and Bush.

But his life, as a whole, does not impress me.

If he is your hero, fine. So be it.
He just wasn't mine.

In closing, I salute Pat Tillman.

Google if you need to OP.

P.S. - "Cat Scratch Fever"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Raymond- I hear you. My point about this guy is that he doesn't give a damn about endangered species in Africa, India, and other places. That's what I was referring to. It's one thing when you're talking about deer, hogs, turkeys, etc, as long as it's in hunting regulations....But the other is disgusting in my opinion....

Kevin - Yeah, I'll agree with you as far as the endangered species are concerned. We have a millionaire here in town who has a big 'trophy' room including a stuffed elephant. What an a$$hole!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of those guys like that dentist who shot the lion last year, who are willing to pay top dollar to 'prove' something.

They use their dollars to first prey on needy individuals in third-world type economies to assist them which, in my opinion, just adds to what I call their crimes.

Aside from the endangered species, Nugent does eat what he shots and doesn't hunt for the afore-mentioned trophies. Just like me, I go through the Burger King Drive-Thru, bring it right home and 'consume' it while it's hot - without even thinking of hanging it on the wall or some such nonsense.

We can thank Ted for 'Cat-scratch Fever' too.


.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

with all of that time you spent replying to people -- many of whom had well thought out, valid counterpoints -- that dared to disagree with you, you could have served at least 50 people at a soup kitchen (e. in your original post). damn shame.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

+1....

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by griffon512

with all of that time you spent replying to people -- many of whom had well thought out, valid counterpoints -- that dared to disagree with you, you could have served at least 50 people at a soup kitchen (e. in your original post). damn shame.

and you could have made a donation to a charity that helps poor people instead of spewing out BS ---I did not reply to many people who had counterpoints; I believe it was 2. And would it be better to avoid responding to people whose viewpoints I feel are dangerous to society? And what have you done to improve the lives of others lately????

[CMIZ5290]

I get the bitter feelings by some people pertaining Ali's dodging of the Vietnam War. I get it. But can anyone tell me why in the Hell we were there to begin with?? I know that this is not the point of the discussion, just hoping for some insight. By the way, I was a History major and I still don't understand it to this day. Also, even if you don't give Ali a pass for that, what about his humanitarian accomplishments decades after that? Bill L. posted it the best....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Kevin - Yeah, I'll agree with you as far as the endangered species are concerned. We have a millionaire here in town who has a big 'trophy' room including a stuffed elephant. What an a$$hole!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of those guys like that dentist who shot the lion last year, who are willing to pay top dollar to 'prove' something.

They use their dollars to first prey on needy individuals in third-world type economies to assist them which, in my opinion, just adds to what I call their crimes.

Aside from the endangered species, Nugent does eat what he shots and doesn't hunt for the afore-mentioned trophies. Just like me, I go through the Burger King Drive-Thru, bring it right home and 'consume' it while it's hot - without even thinking of hanging it on the wall or some such nonsense.

We can thank Ted for 'Cat-scratch Fever' too.


.

Don't even get me started about Walter Palmer.....

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.
Joshua

Really? A somewhat flawed or idealistic analogy. Britain was not North Vietnam, North Korea, the USSR, China, Japan, Germany, etc. Do you honestly feel that a nation full of conscientious objectors would have worked well for the South Vietnamese? Maybe you should ask the Cambodians how well that worked out? Or France?

It really depends largely on who you are 'conscientiously objecting' against and what's in it for them (one way or the other).

[George]

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by xplainer

Check out...his video clips where he states, the Viet Cong aren't his enemies, the white people are.

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by George

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

Well, just to be accurate, that conviction was unanimously reversed by the US Supreme Court, with one justice recusing.

[George]

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

and you could have made a donation to a charity that helps poor people instead of spewing out bs ---i did not reply to many people who had counterpoints; i believe it was 2. And would it be better to avoid responding to people whose viewpoints i feel are dangerous to society? And what have you done to improve the lives of others lately????

all caps because you are annoying me and to hammer home the point.

Funny you should ask what i have done to improve the lives of others lately? Mid-career i decided to transition to being a professional social worker so i could devote more of my time to work that i find meaningful, i.e., improving the lives of others.

One of the sad realities i've found as a social worker is that those who think of themselves as profoundly moral and tolerant versus most other humans are generally ignorant, obstinate, and intolerant [insert your picture here]. Ouch! That hurt a little, i know. It's ok, just keep on reminding yourself how righteous you are!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by George

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

Yet while he was saying this, he was eating at the back of the diner...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

David- If this is your stance on Ali, your feelings about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson must be staggering....Both of whom I have no use for by the way....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Yet while he was saying this, he was eating at the back of the diner...

Kevin Mize just being his usual dumbass self.

Jackie Robinson had it way worse that Ali, yet he didnt call white people "the enemy"...nor did he dodge the draft.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Kevin Mize just being his usual dumbass self.

Jackie Robinson had it way worse that Ali, yet he didnt call white people "the enemy"...nor did he dodge the draft.

You're the idiot, as usual. The beauty of this forum is some things never change, including you....

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

Kevin, congrats. You have a new member in the dumbass club.

Edited to add: Ali was a piece of shit draft dodger. He is a disgrace to everyone (of all races) that were drafted and served.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Kevin, congrats. You have a new member in the dumbass club.

I appreciate that Dave, but unlike you, I don't have the IQ of a fire hydrant....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

There is a rather distinct difference between the prosecution completely botching their case so that the jury, which determines FACTS, finds that the case wasn't proven, and the US Supreme Court, which determines the LAW, finding unanimously, as a matter of LAW. that Ali wasn't guilty of the crime he was charged with and should not have ever have been prosecuted. I don't have to spin anything, because you are simply an idiot without even the beginning of a clue on this issue.

Kenny- You're wasting your time with James...Brains of a fire ant....

[Kenny Cole]

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I appreciate that Dave, but unlike you, I don't have the IQ of a fire hydrant....

I was thinking it was really nice of your mommy to let you stay up late, but then I remembered that school is now out for the summer. Just try snd keep the noise down around the house. The adults have to get up and go to work in the morning.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

Priceless.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was thinking it was really nice of your mommy to let you stay up late, but then I remembered that school is now out for the summer. Just try snd keep the noise down around the house. The adults have to get up and go to work in the morning.

It's funny you mentioned that, I would have figured you would have been at Gilley's by now....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

David, I bet you did very poorly in both Con Law and Crim Pro I and II. No one who actually took and passed those classes could possibly be as ignorant about the difference as you are. Being that stupid is really too bad. I feel sorry for you.

I failed both, Kenny boy. I also failed Draft Dodging I and II because I did step up and serve my country. Did you, or are you just talking out of your ass...again?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

It's funny you mentioned that, I would have figured you would have been at Gilley's by now....

Nope, I quit going there after they took down the rebel flag. Your state still flies it though, right?

[Kenny Cole]

J
David, joined ROTC and got discharged due to active asthma during summer camp at Ft. Riley. Unfortunately, in your case, serving your country didn't make you any smarter. Sorry Kevin, that was an awful mistake I made.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Unfortunately, in your case, serving your country didn't make you any smarter.

Maybe it didn't Kenny boy, but it sure as hell gave me a better appreciation of those who served our counrty and even more appreciation of those that made the ultimate sacrifice, while those like Ali dodged their duty.

[George]

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

nope, i quit going there after they took down the rebel flag. Your state still flies it though, right?

24/7

[Kenny Cole]

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.

I lost 3 great Uncles (My Grandmother's brothers) in WWII. Two in combat, and one in a stinking Japanese prison camp. Isn't it amazing how we still buy German and Japanese cars to this day??

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

No, I think it caused you to lose the ability to see any perspective whatsoever other than your own. That's too bad.

Other than my brother, my entire family served or at least tried to. Stepdad in World War II, Korea and Vietnam, dad in Korea, stepbrother and stepsister in Vietnam. My brother in law has done two tours in Iraq and two more in Afghanistan as a Navy corpsman going out with the Marines. I appreciate the sacrifices that they and others made, but unlike you, most of those in my family seem to have been able to keep a broader perspective than your myopic one.

Differences aside, a sincere thank you to your family members that serve(d). Just curious though, what do they think of Ali dodging the draft?

[Kenny Cole]

Dad is dead, so I can't ask him. He pulled for Ali against Frazier though. My stepdad didn't like the decision Ali made when drafted, but thought he did more than enough good afterward to atone for it. I talked to him just a little about it the other day. I haven't asked, but I'm sure my stepbrother feels somewhat like you do, and I'm sure my stepsister feels 100% the opposite way. Those two are complete polar opposites, always disagree about everything, and don't even talk anymore.

[slidekellyslide]

There are some realllllly stupid (and likely racist) people inhabiting this forum. Ali sucks because he's a draft dodger, but Ted Nugent, a real draft dodger, and pedophile RAWKS!!!1 Oh, and John Kerry who voluntarily signed up for the war in Vietnam is somehow a draft dodger???

Shaking my head......