Keith Olberman on Fred Merkle's boner, 105 years later

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Sean

It's true, McGraw is considered a great manager because he looked for, and in some cases created, any possible advantage for his team. But the one time the tables are turned the Giants never stopped complaining. Some like KO are still doing it to this day.

Well lets be fair. Nobody touched 2nd base in those days when the game was over, and I mean NOBODY. Merkle suffered because the fans pour onto the field after every the game to exit the park in center field. Game was over, and it is VERY LIKELY the ball Evers touched 2nd base with wasn't the same ball.

Should have been a memo sent to every team beginning in 1909 that this rule will be enforced.

[Sean]

It is certainly fair that Merkle not be blamed for doing something that was common practice at the time.
My objection is toward the Giants and their fans who can't accept that they lost because Johhny Evers found a way within the rules to get an advantage on them. Evers was the first to think of this technicality, but that doesn't make it a new rule or even a new interpretation. The rule had never been enforce in a manner inconsistant with this result. No one had noticed that a run could be prevented in this manner prior to Evers figuring this out.
Evers simply came up with an idea within the rules. There is always someone who comes up with an idea for the first time. As an example, consider the double-switch. Someone was the first to use it. That doesn't make it unfair. That just makes this unknown (at least by me) manager very clever.I salute him the same way I salute Evers. They found a way to gain an advantage within the rules. Good for them.

[slipk1068]

I wish the grounds crew ran on the field and gathered the bases and put them in the equipment shed. Then, Merkle is supposed to go in the shed and figure out which base is second base? Maybe he would touch all the bases in the shed just to play it safe? Hope he got in there before Evers who would also have to touch all the bases in the equipment shed. When does the game end? When THOUSANDS of people are pouring onto the field to exit the ballpark?

Yes good for Evers. Smart play which no doubt, McGraw would have done in a second if he thought of it and had the opportunity. It is very unlikely though that Evers had the game ball when he touched 2nd base. So when does the game end? Everyone thought the game was over except Evers and O'Day.

If this technicality was going to be enforced, it shouldn't have been done in such an important game without informing both teams. Let them know when they present the lineup cards before the game. I believe the NL and umpire O'day had it in for McGraw and the Giants. McGraw was hated by umpires and league officials. They found a way to punish the Giants and used it.

AWESOME Merkle collection BTW

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by tbob

Fred Snodgrass in a Game 7 of the World Series years later, dropped an easy fly ball in the 9th inning against the Red Sox. Snodgrass was an excellent defensive outfielder and later that inning made a tremendous catch of a line over his head but when the Red Sox rallied to win, Snograss was the goat. In his obituary some 70 years later, it said "Fred Snodgrass dies, muffed fly ball in Series."

Sun was in his eyes. I believe McGraw rewarded him with a raise

[Sean]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

AWESOME Merkle collection BTW

Thanks. You would never guess from all those that I'm a Cubs fan.

[xcgrammer]

Bill here you go as promised. Great day today for a game, was an awesome day. Merkle's Bar. One the right side of the bar photos you can see the T cards. Couldn't get close, as they were behind the bar. Looked like two T206 and a T205.

[ZenPop]

Awesome to see those again, Sean... so, so cool!

And, even as a Giants' die-hard, I can see both Sean AND Slip's argument...

I'd never wish what happened to Merkle on anyone, though... Great thread and interesting ideas AND visuals! Cheers! (and I'm loving that book!!!!)

[the 'stache]

Thank you very much, Jason. I am about to crash out for the night, but I will enjoy looking those over later when I get up.

Have a good morning, everybody.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Sun was in his eyes. I believe McGraw rewarded him with a raise

Slip- actually Snodgrass never mentioned the sun. He was a class character and admitted he just dropped the dang ball, a catch he made 99.9% of the time. McGraw felt so sorry for him that he gave him a raise, just like he eventually made Merkle the captain of the team to show his support. McGraw, to others, could be a rowdy and mean jerk but at times Muggsy had a heart of gold toward his players. Most of his players loved him.

[bmarlowe1]

While I agree with both the kudos and sympathy directed towards Merkle, I’m less than impressed with Olbermann’s hyperbolic rant.

With respect to the Sep. 4 Cubs-Pirates game, he says that Gil ran to the outfield clubhouse to get away from fans – as if he knows this for sure. It’s possible, but I don’t think we know that for sure. Considering the mere 3-4 seconds or so it takes to run from 1st base with a leadoff to second base, I’m not convinced. If fans were a problem, it seems like running back to the dugout would be a better choice than heading for the outfield clubhouse. Was this a factor for Merkle – who knows? Snodgrass much later claimed it was, but I wouldn’t call him an unbiased observer.

There was no mention of Pulliam’s decision on the Cubs official protest of the Sep 4 game (the Doc Gill game). Umpire O’Day said that in that game, he did not see Evers touch second while holding the ball, therefore the run counted. Pulliam’s decision on the protest supported the umpire stating that only O’Day could say whether or not there was a force out of Gill at second base – other witness evidence could not be considered. He went on, “The umpire in this case, by allowing the winning run, ruled that there was no force at second, because if there had been the run would not have scored.” Pulliam has been criticized for not further emphasizing this last critical point which is generally claimed to have been counter to usual practice – though I wonder how often it actually came up.

Oblermann drones on, “..changing the rules in the middle of the game – that’s what the Cubs did to Fred Merkle.” That’s just ludicrous. The Cubs did nothing to Fred Merkle. Evers made a smart play on Sep 4, and an even a smarter play on Sep 23.

In any case – even if Pulliam would have decided in favor of the Giants, that doesn’t mean the Giants would have won the pennant. Everyone’s mindset after that point would have been different, and all subsequent game results would be up for grabs. Though Merkle would have been spared decades of unjustified ridicule, the end result of the pennant race in that case is not knowable.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by tbob

Slip- actually Snodgrass never mentioned the sun. He was a class character and admitted he just dropped the dang ball, a catch he made 99.9% of the time. McGraw felt so sorry for him that he gave him a raise, just like he eventually made Merkle the captain of the team to show his support. McGraw, to others, could be a rowdy and mean jerk but at times Muggsy had a heart of gold toward his players. Most of his players loved him.

Just reread the Fred Snodgrass chapter in, "The Glory of Their Times." You are correct no mention of the sun. I know I read it somewhere that the sun was involved in that play. I may have read it in John McGraws book, "My 30 years in Baseball," but gotta go with Fred's own words. I guess the sun wasn't a factor.

I always thought of Billy Martin as being a modern day John McGraw. Both were hated by umpires, league officials, opponents, short tempers, would fight with anyone, did anything to win. Both knew which players they needed to ride and which players to lay off of. TOTAL players managers, would stick up for their players unless they made mental mistakes.

[the 'stache]

Great pictures, Jason. Wow. They make me really want to get to Wrigley now.

Do you happen to know the significance of the dollar bills plastered to the wall at Merkle's Bar?

[PolarBear]

The Cubs were asking that an existing rule be enforced, as they had done earlier that season, and were not as KO says "changing rules in the middle of the game". A fact he should have been well aware of since he quoted the rule repeatedly (rule 59), earlier in his own monologue.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

"The Unforgettable Season" is a book about the 1908 pennant race. It is written 100% from newspaper accounts of the day. Read that book and you will feel like you are living through the 1908 season.

Am I seriously the only person here who has read this book?

I've read it, and it's a solid effort. However, Cait Murphy's Crazy '08" is a far superior book about the 1908 pennant race. Her wit and irreverent humor make for a far more interesting account.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I've read it, and it's a solid effort. However, Cait Murphy's Crazy '08" is a far superior book about the 1908 pennant race. Her wit and irreverent humor make for a far more interesting account.

I second the love for Murphy's book. "Crazy '08" is fantastic, a really great read.