Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thread created for future Google searches...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155402

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174512

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174534

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thread created for future Google searches...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155402

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174512

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174534

Well, THAT was some interesting morning reading!!

And more than a tad depressing.

[nsaddict]

Seems like this Joseph guy has some nice items at auction, click on auction links. Darn I missed bidding on that 1961 Topps complete set. I used to love watching Groucho on You Bet Your Life, today's phrase is "screen capture". I was a decent cross country runner in high school living in Passiac. I was dating this girl from Cedar Grove and my best time for the 8 mile run was 44:48, anyone impressed?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Josep...18125758251089

[Peter_Spaeth]

It just goes to show that even low grade cards can be altered, improved, whatever word you like.

[D.P.Johnson]

One of you old school Jersey guy's needs to "Go find Joey and do him up"...

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

One of you old school Jersey guy's needs to "Go find Joey and do him up"...

I think that "Joey" is the old school Jersey guy.... I think this thing runs deep - maybe even Tony Soprano has his hand in it...

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by t206fix

I think that "Joey" is the old school Jersey guy.... I think this thing runs deep - maybe even Tony Soprano has his hand in it...

Nah, Joey doesn't have an Italian last name......

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It just goes to show that even low grade cards can be altered, improved, whatever word you like.

I am not sure anyone ever said they can't be. I think the term I have used is something like "more prevalent"... in high grade cards. Even that is debateable but that would be my assumption due to many factors.

[nsaddict]

This guy must have a passion for the hobby, according to his facebook page he is a grader at SGC!

https://www.facebook.com/joe.pankiewicz

[ullmandds]

That's quite interesting?!

I sense dung heading for a fan?!

[HRBAKER]

IF it's true, would you be surprised?

[kengoldin]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

This guy must have a passion for the hobby, according to his facebook page he is a grader at SGC!

https://www.facebook.com/joe.pankiewicz

Hello all. In fairness to SGC, I emailed this thread to its owner, who read it and confirmed in email to me that Joe Pankiewicz is NOT an employee of SGC and has not been for many years.

I am posting this as I did not want to see SGC unfairly get hit with fallout from the wrath of these threads.

regards
Ken Goldin

[nsaddict]

For the record, my post was not a swipe at SGC in any form. But a grader from a TPG (even in the past) would have advantages in buying/selling cards over the average Joe (pun intended). Let me give you an example:





http://tinyurl.com/n26j9a3



http://tinyurl.com/n72kbpg

Y'all can draw your own conclusions. Anyone know how long ago he departed as a grader and the reason why?

[kengoldin]

" pank hasn't worked for SGC in over 10 years"

That's the quote

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

For the record, my post was not a swipe at SGC in any form. But a grader from a TPG (even in the past) would have advantages in buying/selling cards over the average Joe (pun intended). Let me give you an example:





http://tinyurl.com/n26j9a3



http://tinyurl.com/n72kbpg

Y'all can draw your own conclusions. Anyone know how long ago he departed as a grader and the reason why?

Wow!

Pank won that PSA 4 Robinson and magically bumped it to an SGC 6.5? Wow!

Then he shilled it in Probstein's auction the second time around!

It's all right there in the bid history. His new eBay name is cgseller89 (he just changed it) with a feedback of 402.

I would like SGCs comment on this!!!

[botn]

SGC has no way of knowing the history of the 50 Roby. I understand your anger but it should be directed at Joe P and from what you have suggested, Probstein. By the way, I applaud your gathering the data and facts. Nice job.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's all right there in the bid history. His new eBay name is cgseller89 (he just changed it) with a feedback of 402.

He apparently also has over 9600 FB as "pank21", including over 400 purchases from Probstein between June 2011 and July 2012.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I'm flabbergasted!

[the 'stache]

David, first of all, let me say I applaud your research efforts.

I don't even know where to begin with this. In my line of work, we'd call this market manipulation. It's deceptive, immoral, and illegal.

I know PSA provides their opinion on an incredible number of cards, but how can they not see some of the alterations being made?

[CharleyBrown]

Is there any possibility that he established some friendships among other graders / people working for PSA and SGC?

[atx840]

No bump for you!!

BOUGHT

SOLD

[atx840]

A $600 increase.

BOUGHT

SOLD

[the 'stache]

One question for you guys: do the cards that are being posted in these different discussions sell often in Probstein auctions? Is it possible he sells an Art Shell rookie, and then sells another six weeks later, not recognizing it's the same card with a different grade? How many people are working for him? Or, is he doing the lion's share of work himself? Obviously I am not at all familiar with his operation beyond seeing his name on Ebay.

Am I being obtuse here?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

One question for you guys: do the cards that are being posted in these different discussions sell often in Probstein auctions? Is it possible he sells an Art Shell rookie, and then sells another six weeks later, not recognizing it's the same card with a different grade? How many people are working for him? Or, is he doing the lion's share of work himself? Obviously I am not at all familiar with his operation beyond seeing his name on Ebay.

Am I being obtuse here?

I don't know exactly how many, but he has people working for him...

[Wite3]

oops...already mentioned

[botn]

Joshua,

It was mentioned above but Joe has long been gone from SGC. They should probably ask him to remove that from his facebook page.

Greg

[bobbyw8469]

The Gump Worsley "No Bump for you!" cards are not the same card. I would go back to the drawing board on that one!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The Gump Worsley "No Bump for you!" cards are not the same card. I would go back to the drawing board on that one!!

Wrong. They are the same card. I didn't think they were the same either at first, but if you spend enough time studying the two, they definitely are the same card.

Look at the bottom border notch under the "Y" in York.

Look at the white print spots next to the "L" in Lorne and just above the "N" in New.

Look at the rough cut right border on both cards. The line up exactly the same.

I believe it was cleaned before it went from a 7 to an 8, but it is definitely the same card.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wrong. They are the same card. I didn't think they were the same either at first, but if you spend enough time studying the two, they definitely are the same card.

Look at the bottom border notch under the "Y" in York.

Look at the white print spots next to the "L" in Lorne and just above the "N" in New.

Look at the rough cut right border on both cards. The line up exactly the same.

I believe it was cleaned before it went from a 7 to an 8, but it is definitely the same card.

The card didn't receive a bump to 8, but I do agree its the same card just cleaned up (particularly the print in the upper left corner and the mark just left of his crew-cut).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

The card didn't receive a bump to 8, but I do agree its the same card just cleaned up (particularly the print in the upper left corner and the mark just left of his crew-cut).

You are correct. I was thinking of the other one that did bump. Either way, yes, it looks like it was cleaned.

[thehoodedcoder]

This is starting to look reeeeeeaaallllY bad.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good detective work by the guys on this thread. Unfortunately, this is likely the very small tip of a very large iceberg.

[nsaddict]

http://tinyurl.com/ktskp86

Got this link from Joseph Pankiewicz Sportscards facebook page. If you click on the link you'll see Probstein is the seller and pank21 is the 3rd highest bidder. Those of you with facebook must be signed in to see his fb pages with info I believe. This thread has 100 views per response which is very high, will be interesting to see if anything comes from it.

[egbeachley]

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

[D. Bergin]

I wonder what they are doing to clean up these cards like this?

I admit I thought the Worsley were completely different cards for awhile.

Are they blasting the stray print marks with UV or something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

I have a great deal of admiration for the ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses who knowingly list them.

[MattyC]

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

And, I suppose it also would be nice if they didn't claim that anywhere between 2 and 5 of their grading experts didn't meticulously look at every card submitted...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

I suppose it's depends on what's actually being done to the card. If an alteration is being done in a way that can't be detected, or leaves no evidence on the card itself, I'm at a loss to determine what can be done.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

[HRBAKER]

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

[MattyC]

Why should collectors expect them to get it right far more often than they do? Because they are a for-profit, publicly traded company advertised as "professional." Not advanced hobbyists, not just very experienced, but a professional who gets paid good money to get it right. That term means a lot to me, when someone brands themselves a professional. It elevates them to a level where a high success rate is expected. Those expectations should not be created if they cannot be met, in my humble opinion.

Now no human or company is absolutely perfect, and expecting zero mistakes or missteps is unrealistic I'll be first to admit-- but it is incumbent upon a professional grading and authentication service (or at least one that wants to last and be successful) to keep pace or stay ahead of the experts on the opposite end of the table, so to speak.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure PSA and SGC are doing the best they can within the parameters of what realistically can be done for the fees they charge. But they are up against people with decades of experience in working cards who know all the tricks to avoid detection, and y'all can get on your soapboxes as much as you want but what you see is what you are going to get.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

People aren't wiling to pay $25 a card, Barry. If the TPGs could charge more profitably, don't you think they would be doing so already? All rational businesses charge the most they can.

[botn]

On this thread and several others, we have the benefit of before and after pictures. The grading companies do not have them nor do they have the time to research each card submitted to see it's history. As has been suggested repeatedly, and for many years, many alterations are simply not able to be detected no matter how much time or money is being charged. Someone, maybe it was earlier on this thread, posted a quote from SGC on this very issues. Not every card has to go through massive restoration to go up 2 or 3 grades. Even a one grade bump can simply be the results of a grader being too tough at that particular moment.

[barrysloate]

You're probably right Peter, but if I had a choice to pay either $5 or $25, knowing that for the higher fee they were likely to get it right, but for $5 they might do a sloppy job, I would go for the deluxe service. That's me. Maybe I would send fewer cards in to keep the fees down. Not every T206 common with three creases needs to be in a holder. I would be more selective, that's all.