Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Johnphotoman]

There is a long running thread on the Bond Bread controversy (1947 BOND BREAD and its "importers"....show us your cards ?) By Ted Zanidakis - it is an amazingly good thread, full of good information, but it is long. Everyone should take time to check it out, if you are into Bond Bread. I will give my opinion on what I have read there. Please chime in if I miss something, I am no expert by any means. I just want to recap and update the Bond Bread controversy here. … 1947 BOND BREAD and its "importers"....show us your cards ? By Ted Zanidakis.

All these years and we can not agree on what is a legitimate Bond Bread card. We have 1947 rounded corner cards, 1947 square cards, 1949 square cards-that emerged as a standalone product sold as “Sport Star Subjects”, and the re-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's…24 cards in that set. All these cards were 2 ¼ x 3 ½, but on different paper.

Ted Zanidakis had first hand knowledge on what should be considered Bond Bread cards, he collected these cards directly from Bond Bread packages. They were on thin white stock with round corners. Bond Bread cards were packaged in loaves of Bond Bread, and at least one theory for their rounded corners is that the cards were less susceptible to damage that way. Importantly for collectors today, the rounded corners help distinguish these cards from near-identical versions that emerged as a standalone product sold as “Sport Star Subjects” in 1947 and 1949.

We also have people who say they collected 1947 square cards that were not inserted into Bond Bread; printed on heavier card-stock not as white, more on the gray side. These 1947 square cards should not be called Bond Bread since they were not inserted into Bond Bread. Although the two mentioned cards are virtually identical, but still, many people say they collected 1947 square first hand in boxes as a stand alone. ie, “Sports Star”.

This means that we have two distinct issues: for the year 1947; Bond Bread package inserts and stand alone, “Sports Star”. Meaning 1947 Bond Bread round cornered, and 1947 Sports Star Bond Bread squared cornered cards.

We also have the 1949 square cards…”Sports Star” said to have come out in 1949. But remember we have statements from various collectors who say they received the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets in packets in 1947, it appears to me that it is incorrect to assume those sets were not issued until 1949-1950.

Yes, cards did come out in 1949 as Sports Star cards, but these were just re-prints of 1947 Sports Star cards, I do not believe anyone can tell if they are from 1947 or 1949 since they are exactly the same. These cards should be called Sports stars and not Bond Bread cards , even though many have the same image on them.

Now up to date, Bond Bread did produce Aarco Bond Bread Exhibit cards in 1947, many with the same images as the Bond Bread inserts; 3 1/16 x 4 ¾ in. believed to have been distributed through penny arcades. But this size is not listed in the standard catalog of vintage baseball cards 4 edition. Many people assign these cards to W571, but that is wrong.

Also in 1947 Bond Bread produced premium baseball cards that were 6-5/8 in x 9 in. The exhibit and premium cards should not be called Bond Bread cards, but Bond Bread exhibit and premium Bond Bread cards.

As for the Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's, you can tell they are not from 1947 or 1949 by looking at the back of the cards, they are more brown than the white or gray stock used to print on. As a matter of fact - the 1947 and 1949 square cards and the exhibit, and the premium are printed on the same gray looking stock, whereas the Bond Bread round cornered cards were on a whiter and a little bit thinner and glossy stock. It is very obvious that the Festberg discoveries are inferior reproductions of the original 1947-1949 cards.

Full disclosure: I only collect baseball cards that match photos I have, and I do have two other threads on this subject running; Bond Bread card size, and card size. Please have a look.

I have a few photos that match the “Bond Bread” cards. That's why I have done my research on Bond Bread cards. Here are some of the pictures I have - to show the difference, look at the front and back of the cards. John.

[butchie_t]

Well then, please check the attached example and tell me what era you believe it may fit into this discussion.


Butch Turner

[Johnphotoman]

"Well then, please check the attached example and tell me what era you believe it may fit into this discussion."

In my opinion...it is a 1947-1949 card! Once again... I am no expert by any means. John. What size is the card?

[Leon]

This should keep you going for the next hour or so....It was started about 15 1/2 yrs ago by Teddy Z (RIP)...

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92743

[Johnphotoman]

Yes I hope I was clear on that. It is one of the best threads on Bond Bread. But at the same time we have new information or a better understanding of the facts, this is what this thread is about. Thanks for putting up the ink, from Ted Z. John

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

"Well then, please check the attached example and tell me what era you believe it may fit into this discussion."

In my opinion...it is a 1947-1949 card! Once again... I am no expert by any means. John. What size is the card?

I see that you did select an era. I would certainly like to believe that to be the case. But I have no proof and am just happy to have the cards I have.



Butch Turner

[ullmandds]

I believe that card to be from the large find which I believe occurred in the 70s. I have no idea when these were made, but they are not treated as original in the hobby in my opinion..

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I believe that card to be from the large find which I believe occurred in the 70s. I have no idea when these were made, but they are not treated as original in the hobby in my opinion..

I believe this is correct and have no other empirical data to go on. I bought these when I was a member of the Baseball Card Society and have the information sheets that both Apfelbaum and Feldstein sent to the members discussing these cards.

Here is an example with rulers. Sorry about the ruler on the side it slipped an 1/16th of an inch.

Regards,

Butch Turner

[Matt74]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

As for the Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's, you can tell they are not from 1947 or 1949 by looking at the back of the cards, they are more brown than the white or gray stock used to print on. As a matter of fact - the 1947 and 1949 square cards and the exhibit, and the premium are printed on the same gray looking stock, whereas the Bond Bread round cornered cards were on a whiter and a little bit thinner and glossy stock. It is very obvious that the Festberg discoveries are inferior reproductions of the original 1947-1949 cards.

My parents ordered me a set of the 24 square cornered cards for Christmas, I want to say, 1988-89. I don't remember getting a letter, but I was given a copy of the ad from the newspaper (either NY Newsday or Daily News) that they were ordered from, which had a very similar description as the letter that Butchie T posted. Unfortunately, I don't have it any longer...(I know I have the cards packed away somewhere, because I have never sold any of my collection, I just don't know where).
What I can say, is that the backs of them were much lighter than your photo. They have a cream colored back that is almost white and the cardboard stock is very thin. I now know that I am going to have to tear apart my attic to track these down.

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, I would bet they are Bond Bread 1947 W571/D0305. Or Aarco Playing Cards, who originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects, printed on a whiter more on the cream side then the 1947 square corner printed on heaver more on the gray side of paper. If you ever get the time can you post a couple here, so we can see. Thanks John.

[Johnphotoman]

IMG_2400.jpg more like this, cream color.

[Johnphotoman]

To quote Bob Lemke’s blog, “Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. The cards are black-and-white, blank-backed, 2-1/4" x 3-3/8" with rounded corners. Photos are borderless portraits or posed action shots with a facsimile autograph or script name.”

In 1947, “the N.Y. baker of Bond Bread evidently contracted with Aarco to obtain a quantity of the cards for distribution in loaves of bread. Later, for reasons unknown, square-cornered versions of half the cards in the set, printed on different card stock, were also produced.”

Matt 74, I believe you could have the same set that butchie t has, the 24 set from the 1970-1980, from the Original sets printed in 1947, the photos above was to show 1947 Square Corner cards printed on a heavier gray stock than the originals. I do not have any of the originals that I can post. Thank you John.

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you Pete, (Ullmandds), you can tell the Festberg - discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's…from the 1947 cards. By looking at the back of the cards, they are more brown than the white or gray stock used to print on. And the quality of printing, the pictures are not as sharp. If you post the back of the cards that would help. From the front of the cards you posted, they do not look like the 1980 Festberg find to me. John

[Matt74]

John, I have no doubt in my mind that they are the same cards Butchie T has... I just need to find them, however, I had picked up 3 more this past year which have a darker back, more of a beige than cream, but no where near as dark as the original pic in the thread. Musial and Williams from one vendor, and a Kiner from another. I'm trying to post pics of the front and backs of these, but my upload keeps failing. They pass the smell test (although not as strong as most older cards) and they are very thin, like I remember my set. Strange thing is, the Kiner is just a touch shorter than the other 2 (trimmed? maybe). I'll try to upload some pictures of these again tomorrow.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Matt74

My parents ordered me a set of the 24 square cornered cards for Christmas, I want to say, 1988-89. I don't remember getting a letter, but I was given a copy of the ad from the newspaper (either NY Newsday or Daily News) that they were ordered from, which had a very similar description as the letter that Butchie T posted. Unfortunately, I don't have it any longer...(I know I have the cards packed away somewhere, because I have never sold any of my collection, I just don't know where).
What I can say, is that the backs of them were much lighter than your photo. They have a cream colored back that is almost white and the cardboard stock is very thin. I now know that I am going to have to tear apart my attic to track these down.

My friends mother purchased a set for him and he told me that she purchased them from an ad in the NY Times. There are images of all of them in post #53 in the old thread.

[ullmandds]

i may have mispoken when i said "find" in the 70's. I was referring tpo the festburg find.

[scgaynor]

I feel like people overthink this set.

Bond Bread didn't print the cards, they simply bought the cards from a printer and used them. The original issue is on thicker stock and pretty easy to tell it is original.

The cards from the "find" are on old paper stock, not paper stock from the 1980's. They are left over stock from the 1940's or early 1950's. I don't know why collectors would shy away from them, they are legit 1940's-1950's cards.

I don't think that I have ever seen any that were actually printed in the 1980's.

If anything is a more modern fantasy piece, it is the exhibit issue. I wonder when these first appeared in hobby publications. They photos are grainy as if they are just enlarged versions of the smaller cards and the card stock is similar to the reprint exhibit cards that entered the hobby in the 1980's.

[Johnphotoman]

Butch, part of me agrees with you, but as you said, your cards check enough of the boxes, for you to say they are 1947-1949 baseball cards. Let's look at the facts: We have people who have first hand Knowledge, these people collected their cards directly from Bond Bread loaves of bread or from Sports Star cards from - 1947-49.

We know what they look like, feel like, what they're printed on and the quality of printing from first hand knowledge. Then we have two letters to tell us about them, “24 card set originally printed in 1947-49 - offered for sale in 1970s and 1980s. Note, the letter says that they are not re-prints but the original 1947 printed cards. These are not just letters trying to get people to buy their cards. But very respected and qualified people and organizations to make such claims. Much different then the letter that went out from the 1980s Festberg - discovered, and the fact that we can tell the Festberg cards from the originally printing 1947 cards helps us to believe your cards fall under the 1947-49 printed cards.

Using the above criteria - in all faith, we are able to put certain cards in the 1947-49 print time. But no one can say they have a real Bond Bread, only the ones who collected cards directly out of the Bond Bread loaf of bread. Bond Bread and Sports Star did produce the exact same rounded corner cards, therefore you or I or anybody for that fact can say for sure a rounded corner card is a Bond Bread card, but if they check all the same boxes as the cards you have… we can say they are from 1947-49. But you are right, a serious amount of forensic work needs to be done on these cards to actually place them in the 40's era 100%. Given what we know I believe we can place the right cards with a 80 to 90% accuracy in the 1947-49 window of time. I also believe we can place the re-prints, and fakes with the same 80 to 90% accuracy - that they do not fit in the 1947-49 window of time. John

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda: That question is one for the experts who know about what is considered rare. Right out of the box I would say no.Understand the only people who have collected the original - Bond Bread cards, are those who collected those cards out of the loaves of bread. They are the only ones or have the “original Bond Bread cards”. I would say if you have proof, one could say on that point they are very rare. John

[Johnphotoman]

I agree wholeheartedly with Scott, he is right on. Bond Bread did not print their own cards. It was only after seeing the Sports Star cards, they contacted the Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards to print the same cards for them to put in their loaves of bread. Aarco, who originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. And as Scott said, the 1980s Festberg find are: “The cards from the "find" are on old paper stock, not paper stock from the 1980's. They are left over stock from the 1940's or early 1950's. I don't know why collectors would shy away from them, they are legit 1940's-1950's cards.”

I am not saying the 80s Fesberg are not from the 1947-50s, someone stored these cards printed from 1940-50s and they stayed there until Fesberg found them in 1980 or so. But it's just good to know what we have in our collection, and since we can tell them apart from the others we should designate them as such. I do believe people should collect the 1980 find. But we should be able to say if they are from The Sports Star/Bond Bread sets in our collection. It if fun to know what you have - anyway they are all good to have, just not as good as the-reprints or fakes. Thank You Scott, John.

[ullmandds]

Does anyone know how the large the stash of cards was that was found...from the late 40's...presumably? Seems to me it was quite large as these cards were readily available for many years at pretty low prices.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Yoda: That question is one for the experts who know about what is considered rare. Right out of the box I would say no.Understand the only people who have collected the original - Bond Bread cards, are those who collected those cards out of the loaves of bread. They are the only ones or have the “original Bond Bread cards”. I would say if you have proof, one could say on that point they are very rare. John

John, the reason I posed the question is I hold 2 1947 Bond Bread insert cards with Stan the Man having a printed Bond Bread reverse while the Scooter has a blank back. Was just curious if the blank backs are rarer. Thanks. John

[Johnphotoman]

No the blank backs are not rarer, in my opinion. The 1947-49 cards we call "Bond Bread" had blank backs. And may 1947-49 cards had printing on the backs, I will look up the distinction later and explain the difference between the two, I'll have to check my notes, I cannot answer off the top of my head. I can say the one with printing on the backs, has never been given the title of Bond Bread. They are both great cards to have. John.

[GeoPoto]

WRT "the Fessburg cards": You seem to be saying that somebody printed up a bunch of cards in 1947-9 on eccentric card stock, which then disappeared leaving no survivors until a large number were found in 1980. I'm wondering why you are convinced they were printed then and not any other time between then and when they were "discovered" in 1980?

I only have one card that's relevant:



Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[Johnphotoman]

Only because we have first hand knowledge, people who collected these cards in 1947-49. Therefore we know what to look for. To print them in any other years, they would have to have copied them from the original cards, when this is done we can tell. As I have said, you would need the original photos or negatives to print from. There is 99% chance the people who would have printed the exact cards would have the originals, therefore, you would have a copy of a copy, which will leave a patter in the printed card.

I was in printing for 40 years, I can tell when it is a copy from something that has already been printed. Look at the examples, you can tell the one that was copied from one that was printed before, and the one that was printed right from the original photo. The top card is the fake.

As for the card stock it would not match any of the samples we have from 1947-49 paper stock. You can use a black light to tell new paper stock from paper stock that was made in 1947-49. John

[aelefson]

Hi-

I saw David with a bunch (100+ I think) of the sets at Papermania in Hartford CT several years ago. I cannot remember the exact year but it was around 2019 or more recently. I wonder how many sets there were in his find.

Alan

[Johnphotoman]

You know…Dave Fessburg, could clear this all up, and he is probably the only one who knows how many cards there where. I don't know even if he is still around. But it would be cool to have him respond, or just to talk to him and get his respective on things. John

[butchie_t]

In the words of Yamamoto: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

This is totally 'tongue-in-cheek' and more of a reference to the first thread on this subject.

There is humor to be found in this, one just has to find it.

Cheers,

Butch

[DaughterFestberg]

Hi this is David Festberg’s daughter, I’m trying to track him down. Does anyone have any information where he is and how I could get in touch?

[Exhibitman]

"An Exhibit Card" is on the new cards in the 1949 print run. Some cards were run multiple years. Some the company scratched out the legend and ran the cards again:





And as long as I am on it, the base images used to make Exhibit cards were hand-edited and annotated. Here are a few:

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

GeoPoto GeoPoto - I like to offer up a better reason why I am convinced about the 1980 Festburg cards, and other 1947-49 cards discussed here. One because of new or a better understanding of the facts we have surrounding those cards. I discovered much confusion, misidentification and perhaps some people just not telling the truth. We see false ads all the time. To be clear, much of the information in this piece is based on supposition by myself and other collectors. But as new evidence or information comes forth …we can say we are on the right track, I would say with an 80% to 95% accuracy on what we put forth as truth. I believe the one card you have is one of the original Bond Bread cards, but to see the back would help. Great Card. John

[Johnphotoman]

Yoda: I spent a little time researching my notes, and the 13 cards that make up the 1947 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set, (printing on the backs) are considered a rarity more so then the Bond Bread cards that came in the loaves of bread, the ones with no printing on the backs. The 13 card set - are done entirely in black and white. The images have rounded corners with a white outside border and squared cut cards.

One card in the set has a portrait of Robinson on the front along with a facsimile signature. The back of this one card is the only one to feature a biographical write-up. The others cards have one of two back- with direct ads, that cover the rest of the set.

The facsimile signature the card portrait of Robinson, was likely distributed outside of the rest of the set. Most likely not inserted in loaves of bread. It has long been believed that it was a promo card of sorts available at grocery stores, among other distribution ways. There is this ad from 1947 in the Baltimore Afro new paper that seems to back this theory up: The ad tells people to run to the grocery store to get one for free. It looks like there is no mention of having to buy a loaf of bread. And then there is an ad, not sure where the ad ran, that looks like the front of the card- that says Free Offer, your grocer will give you a pocket-size photo of Jackie, get yours today.

The people who collect Robinson cards could tell you more. Will try and dig up the ad and post them and some other copies I have on these cards. If not I bet someone out there can. PS-I am going over my notes to see if I have anything on the cards you have, can you post pictures of front and backs. Someone more acquainted with your cards could tell you more.

John

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

Thanks, John, very helpful. Appreciate it.

[Johnphotoman]

Pat R
Patrick- no please question me, that's how we are going to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread controversy. We need to ask questions, thank you for doing so. I will go back and look over my notes as well as - Ted Z thread, to see if I missed anything, and report back to you what I believe to be true; based on the facts we have so far. I do know of one problem: many people bought what we classify as “Bond Bread” cards printed in 1947 from ads in the 1980- 1990. Then many heard about the "Festberg" find, and just assumed that's the cards they have. As a result people started believing their cards are from some other time than 1947-1949. Keep in mind most experts believe the Festberg cards were printed in 1947-1949, and then discovered in a warehouse in the '80s… by David Festberg. John

[CardPadre]

I don’t know anything about Bond Bread cards but wanted to share these images that may or may not be present or discussed elsewhere in the thread just because I recently saw them. Ignore, if appropriate.

[ullmandds]

bam!

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

bam!

That is an understatement! John

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you CardPadre. This is great. I do need time to look it over, Thank you again. It came at just the right time, It fits in with what I am going to write about the smoking -gun. John.

[JUrsaner]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Thank you CardPadre. This is great. I do need time to look it over, Thank you again. It came at just the right time, It fits in with what I am going to write about the smoking -gun. John.

Not sure if it was those exact ones, but I believe the Baseball Card Society documents have been posted before.

The theory then being that the "Festburg Find" was a surplus print run of Series 3 and Series 4 of the Sports Star Subjects boxes... 11x baseball players + 1x boxer in each series...
Which would've been based on the original 48-card Bond Bread set of 44x baseball players, 4x boxers... likely produced by the same print company (Aarco?) and just separated into Series... which would've been the 2nd half of the set...
The Sports Star Subjects may have originally (1947-1948?) been packed with rounded corners that were a way to recycle surplus cards from actual Bond Bread printed cards... but then later (1948-1950?) switched over to square cards, since no reason to clip the corners if not in bread packaging... and then eventually also shifted to lower quality paper stock...
Which that surplus of later printing is what likely became the "Festburg Find"...? And accounts for the difference in paper stock, back color, etc. relative to the "bread-issued" original Bond Bread cards...

Auction photos of intact boxes/sets of the Sports Star Subjects have been posted before. I don't have them saved, but if anyone had them and could post... that would likely be helpful

[butchie_t]

How much more proof is needed at this point. These are Homogenized Bond Bread cards.

Now, how to go about getting the two major card graders to get on board with this information.

Very hard to deny it now.

Thanks CardPadre and HUZZAH to John in dogging this effort.

I stand GOBSMACKED......

Cheers and WOOT!!!


Butch

[Johnphotoman]

Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects and the boxes they came in.