Theft at Philly Show

[taul166]

I saw some chatter on YouTube about a theft of a nice, graded 1933 Goudey Ruth (Red) from a dealer who was set up at this past weekend's show.

Does anyone know if this in fact happened or know any specifics?

[philliesfan]

I was set up at the show and I did not hear anything about that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I did hear about it, though I forget who the victim was. Apparently the classic 2 guys distraction ploy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I did hear about it, though I forget who the victim was. Apparently the classic 2 guys distraction ploy.

Hopefully they were caught on video, although I guess so far that hasn't solved the Dallas case as far as we know.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Even more incentive as a dealer to stay home and do your business completely online.

With the huge amounts of cash behind dealer tables at shows, these thieves may eventually start weighing the logic of robbing dealers for their money as opposed to items which have to be fenced. Cards have many different ways to be identified; cash does not.

Just one of countless reasons why I'd never set up at a show again. I've done enough of that to last me several lifetimes. What was fun over 30 years ago is today my idea of a horrible way to spend a weekend. Not interested in the torture of getting cornered into long conversations with people who don't spend a dime while a potential sale walks away, let alone the increasing risk of theft or robbery.

[Zach Wheat]

The day will come when dealers at shows won't bring expensive cards to shows anymore.

[FromVAtoLA]

This thread has devolved, but a question for folks who are dealers. Is it common to hide an airtag in each of your cases, boxes, luggage, etc? It wouldn't prevent a single card from being stolen, but if there's a smash and grab or someone grabs a case like they did in Dallas then you could immediately open your phone and show the cops where your items are. They are like $20 bucks each so it seems pretty cheap relative to the value of your inventory.

[ClementeFanOh]

FromVAtoLA- You, sir, hit the nail on the head. Once again, a determined
minority of attention-starved posters deliberately derailed the thread. It is
common on this board, sadly enough...

Adam/Exhibitman- Thanks for your rational reply, amazing what happens
when a couple people manage to stay on a directly stated point. For the
record, I am very well aware that most folks can't hit the broad side of a
barn under pressure. I have not, am not, and will not advocate for a card
show to look like a GTA mission. I'd much prefer that show promoters
announce the presence of uniformed or plain clothes LE at shows, that
entering folks see a camera at the only entry point, and that sellers and
customers alike take active steps to minimize chances for thieves to act.
Maybe an observant thief notices a concealed carry bulge under a dealer's
shirt and decides to try his luck elsewhere as well- no harm at all in that. I
don't have Eastwood style fantasies about guns at shows, my vision is much
more docile than that- every party taking a role to make it hard on the
thieves who should be the focus of this thread, for example. If some sellers
opt to conceal a weapon for safety there's no need for Constitutional Law
class beforehand- it's up to that person to know what he's about. Judging by
the utter absence of news about dealers/buyers cranking rounds off at shows
because someone made off with their cards, I'd say most people already
grasp this concept.

NotSmart- I've attended shows since 1981 and greatly enjoyed myself at
practically all of them. No cards stolen, zero shots fired. I notice you still
haven't contributed to the actual thread. Good luck with 1911 as an ally.
Such an..."interesting" choice.

Trent King

[theshowandme]

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

That last part is scary.

I think some dealers and patrons have taken a cavalier attitude towards this. Not meant to be scary, but whenever you have a large amount of cash and collectibles in one location, they can be targeted very easy. It scares me when I see dealers set up by themselves with no help. I hope that changes in the future.

[Hankphenom]

Be it ever thus. I'm sure there were thefts at the first show ever held and just about every one since. If it gets endemic, security will have to be ramped up accordingly. When I was a kid in the 1950s, we knew that if you left your bike or baseball glove unattended too long at a playground, they might not be there when you got back. Now, if dealers are getting mugged, that's a whole new ugly ballgame, and the promoters and venues will have to beef up security to try to stop it. Dealers will have to travel in pairs or packs, etc. Cameras everywhere, of course.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Be it ever thus. I'm sure there were thefts at the first show ever held and just about every one since. If it gets endemic, security will have to be ramped up accordingly. When I was a kid in the 1950s, we knew that if you left your bike or baseball glove unattended too long at a playground, they might not be there when you got back. Now, if dealers are getting mugged, that's a whole new ugly ballgame, and the promoters and venues will have to beef up security to try to stop it. Dealers will have to travel in pairs or packs, etc. Cameras everywhere, of course.

Two thoughts:

1. To be blunt, most show promoters don't take security into account. Its minimal at best, even at the bigger shows. I don't think that changes.

2. Thefts have happened , but 2024 has (sadly) been a banner year for big times thefts. Two that stand out are the Memory Lane Fiasco and the Dallas Show Theft. We are talking about over a million dollars of items stolen. If that doesn't change how people act at shows, then nothing will.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Two thoughts:
1. To be blunt, most show promoters don't take security into account. Its minimal at best, even at the bigger shows. I don't think that changes.
2. Thefts have happened , but 2024 has (sadly) been a banner year for big times thefts. Two that stand out are the Memory Lane Fiasco and the Dallas Show Theft. We are talking about over a million dollars of items stolen. If that doesn't change how people act at shows, then nothing will.

As I said, if it becomes endemic, promoters will have to beef up security, passing along the costs, of course. But very large thefts have occurred going back many years, the 1991 Anaheim National from McKee/Bosley and Huggins and Scott getting their truck hit in the parking lot at Valley Forge some years ago coming to mind, I'm sure there have been others in addition to innumerable smaller thefts over the years. A wild guess would be that there are 100 individuals and teams at the National every year whose sole purpose is to try to rip dealers off, and any good sized show will have a dozen or so there for that purpose and that purpose only. As for personal security, I remember at the Chicago National in 1998 getting a little tipsy while sitting in on a late-night bar meeting of autograph heavyweights that lead to the formation of PSA, then walking the skyway back to my car on the roof of the parking garage and thinking, "this is not smart, I've got thousands of dollars of cash and collectibles in my bag, and there is not another soul in sight, anything could happen." I was lucky and made it back OK, but just the thought of what might have been made me more cautious after that.

[MJRaider]

Starting to feel inevitable that something really tragic happens one of these days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

Wasn't there a similar theft from a car at the National? Thought I read about that.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't there a similar theft from a car at the National? Thought I read about that.

The theft at the National was from an unlocked car. I believe a briefcase with around $275K was stolen.

[steve B]

One dealer I see at shows for a different hobby has boxes of items. All small and easily stolen if someone really wanted to.
But all the expensive ones are only represented by photocopies, and you have to ask to see them. One item at a time, and they have a couple people in the booth.

The off site stuff is more worrying, as they could just as easily target an attendee who bought a great card.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jayshum

The theft at the National was from an unlocked car. I believe a briefcase with around $275K was stolen.

That's really nuts, not to at least keep the briefcase in the trunk if the car has one or keep it with you at all times. But the car unlocked with the briefcase inside? There's no words for that. And they must be playing in a different league--how many bring 275K in cash to a show, even the National?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That's really nuts, not to at least keep the briefcase in the trunk if the car has one or keep it with you at all times. But the car unlocked with the briefcase inside? There's no words for that. And they must be playing in a different league--how many bring 275K in cash to a show, even the National?

Here's a link to an article about the theft at the National. While I was surprised by the amount of cash, I was told by a dealer at the Philly Show that having that much cash on hand at the National is not uncommon.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...rs-convention/

[Schlesinj]

I spoke to the local police who attended the show. They had other private security too. Stinks in general that we have some bad people.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The theft at food stops nearby is pretty scary. I never even considered that possibility and often stop right outside the show as there are a good amount of choices. So as vigilant as I think I am, apparently I've just gotten lucky (or my stuff just doesn't inspire thieves lol)

[Johnny630]

Word has gotten out over the past few years that many if not all dealers at these bigger shows are wearing, carrying, and or transporting large some's of cash to and from venues. All are hopefully keeping there business to themselves and alternating routes and normal routines at these shows...mix it up next time. They know the dealer circuit...and your behavioral patterns. They see the same dealers at the same shows month after month quarter after quarter year after year doing same..don't do the same routine mix it up a little.

[toppszl1]

I attended the show and didn’t see any security, as a matter of fact the checkers at the door weren’t even inspected wrist bands, it’s a shame with this beautiful hobby that people steal right in broad daylight.

Every vendor was very kind and knowledgeable, this breaks my heart and makes me furious.

[Directly]

A Gold dealer friend of mine purchased $54,000 in Gold Bullion Coins. He was being watched by thieves during the coin show. They followed him to a Cracker Barrel. While inside they popped the door lock and took his briefcase with all the gold coins. If he hadn't left the coins in his car, they had put a spike under his tire to rob him. His good fortune they got what they wanted--

[theshowandme]

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

That is a very nice 4. I feel terrible for that dealer.

[theshowandme]

At this point I think there are more $1 million+ sales in coins than cards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...xpensive_coins

[Snapolit1]

Funny how many folks anguish over how terrible Atlantic City is. Has there even been a big Atlantic City theft? Can’t recall one.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Funny how many folks anguish over how terrible Atlantic City is. Has there even been a big Atlantic City theft? Can’t recall one.

A dealer was walking around the 2022 show with a busted up face after being mugged outside the show

[Lucas00]

Official post from the dealer himself.

[ClementeFanOh]

This is sad news, I am sorry for Paul Borges that he was victimized in this
way. A few observations:

1) Seems like surging popularity of the hobby has incurred this
consequence. Where large amounts of money and valuables are, bad
people are also. I recall telling someone that the floor of the National in
Cleveland looked like a casino.

2) It is hard to overemphasize the need for ALL parties to be vigilant at
shows. Organizers- especially at larger venues- get the proper security!
If you have to charge $5 entry instead of free admission to compensate,
do it. Those who transact the most will consider it a drop in a bucket.
Sellers- take a helper whose function is to watch your stuff. Don't default
by saying it's inconvenient, do it. Buyers/guests- be watchful at all times.
Don't throw some hissy fit about "rights violations" if you are required to
show a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card). Make it
harder on the bad guys and they may skip the show you are attending.
Doesn't that sound desirable?

3) Someone above mentioned no cash at shows. Wow, I have no words.
Of course cash needs to be at shows- the people holding the cash and
event organizers need to work to make it as safe as possible.

4) For those of you who choose to carry a weapon or who are thinking about
it, know the laws in your state that apply. This is especially true for carry
in vehicles.


Since certain segments of this board tend to turn even the most helpful
or thorough comments into a cause to engage in hyperbole, I am not
suggesting a police state at shows. I am also not suggesting that shows
should look like an episode of Gunsmoke. It's clear there's a burgeoning
problem and that acting, rather than talking about it, is the answer.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

That truly sucks. I didn't read the whole thread, I hope he at least has insurance.

[GWmotorlodge]

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by GWmotorlodge

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

Each state has it's own laws and restrictions in terms of who, where, what type and when a gun may be carried and many do not reciprocate permits from other states. It is a frequently changing literal maze of laws and regulations. You also can't shoot someone for stealing (at least in my state), only if there is a threat of imminent physical harm and no means of egress. It is important for anyone considering this to thoroughly learn and understand the laws in their state and any other state they are thinking about carrying their weapon into.

[G1911]

All of the theft threads get into guns before the end. It is not a solution. Even in 2nd Amendment honoring free states it is not legal to shoot somebody for attempting a theft.

These incidents have not been thieves threatening the dealer or anyone else, or doing so in a way that would make a reasonable person fear for the lives of themselves or others. It's been breaking into an unoccupied car (or in one case, just opening the unlocked car) or grabbing while a dealer isn't looking. That's not a legal reason to shoot them, nor is it an ethical one. Carrying a gun, if one so chooses, is a responsibility that requires one to de-escalate, not shoot anyone who breaks a law, especially in a public venue. It is a tool of last resort, not a first resort to show how tough one is or to shoot any lawbreaker. In none of these of incidents would even drawing ones weapon be legal or ethical. In none of them would responsible carry have changed the outcome whatsoever.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card).

Will my KISS Army card work?

Guns are not the answer. And before the gun people have kittens over my 'liberal' view, I own multiple and can shoot the wings off a mosquito with my rifle, so I am not a prohibitionist, but I am a realist. Have you met the average card show attendee? I don't think a good portion of them should be allowed to drive, and to think of them armed...yipes!

[ClementeFanOh]

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is there anyone on this board more arrogant, self-righteous, and personally hostile as you? Good god, as you like to say. I haven't said anything in this thread that would remotely warrant yet another personal attack from you. Here's one back -- fuck yourself. I doubt I've told anyone that before, but there's a time and place for everything. Here's some advice for you -- stick to the merits of a discussion, don't get angry, and don't attack people. How hard is that?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

How is it absurd of me to observe that bringing a gun out is not a legal or ethical solution to non-violent thefts that never posed a physical danger to anyone? Of course you can't answer anything or back your statements because your solution of open carrying guns at shows to cause panics is retarded and you can't figure out how that makes any sense. This is the second time you have had a meltdown over somebody not endorsing violence. What kind of sick fuck objects to this?

All you do is blatantly lie about transcripts, throw randomly chosen insults, and come off like a potentially violent lunatic. I hope this is merely an online tough guy persona this dipshit has.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

check this one out

[Peter_Spaeth]

Geez, just grab them at the source I guess.

[GasHouseGang]

That's really awful! To have your entire truck and most of your inventory stolen, wow! I certainly don't know what the solution is, but I wish it would stop.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I certainly don't know what the solution is

Sell from home. Rent a p.o. box.

[MikeGarcia]

.The thieves would need a tow truck to "steal" that vehicle. Cameras in parking lot I imagine.

.

[bk400]

Guys, we're talking about Philly. What do you expect? Philly sucks. Just like the Eagles and....the Phillies.

Let's Go Mets!!!!