Wanted: 1936 Goudey Wide Pen Premiums R314 Hank Greenberg Type 5 Only!

[holybull]

Still looking....thanks, Michael.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by holybull

Still looking....thanks, Michael.

There is no such thing as Goudey Type 5 wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg. The Type 5 cards are a creamy color, have borders but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line printed on them, and only include players from the Montreal and Toronto teams of the International League. They are considered by many as solely a Canadian issue because of that. You should scratch this from your Greenberg search/want list because you aren't finding something that doesn't exist.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by BobC

There is no such thing as Goudey Type 5 wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg. The Type 5 cards are a creamy color, have borders but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line printed on them, and only include players from the Montreal and Toronto teams of the International League. They are considered by many as solely a Canadian issue because of that. You should scratch this from your Greenberg search/want list because you aren't finding something that doesn't exist.

That actually isn't true. Type 5 cards do exist for some Detroit players, maybe all of them (not sure because I only pay attention to the Greenberg checklist). There is at least one board member who has a Greenberg.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Zan

That actually isn't true. Type 5 cards do exist for some Detroit players, maybe all of them (not sure because I only pay attention to the Greenberg checklist). There is at least one board member who has a Greenberg.

Hmm, had not heard that before. I'll have to do some checking. Thank you if that is the case and I've been wrong. I've always gone off the old SCD catalogs and Bob Lemke descriptions, which were up published up until around 2017 I believe. So if there were any changes to what I previously remember, they must have been found/made in just the past few years.

Alright, did my checking. My understanding was that the Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums were also of the exact same/similar cream colored stock as the Type 5 cards, also the exact same borders like the Type 5 cards, and likewise did not have the line "LITHO IN U.S.A." on them, just like they also were not on the Type 5 cards. In fact, from what I'm seeing, the only difference between the Type 4 and Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium cards was that the Type 4 cards were all of major league ballplayers, including Greenberg and other Detroit players, along with many other MLB players from other teams as well, and all the Type 5 cards were just the Toronto and Montreal players from the International League. It was thought by many that BOTH the Type 4 and Type 5 sets may well have been a single Canadian issue then, but the people responsible for listing them, like Bob Lemke and the SCD catalogs, separated them into Type 4 and Type 5 cards and checklists based solely on whether they were in the major or minor leagues. And for the record, I have over half the Type 4 set myself, including a Greenberg portrait, along with a single Type 5 card of Henry Erickson, as part of my own type card collection. But by having an example of both Types 4 and 5, I can personally verify that both Types have all the exact same previously described attributes, so the only real seeming difference between the two Types is as Bob Lemke/the SCD catalogs put it, whether they were on the majors or the minors. And in 1937, Hank Greenberg was most definitely NOT in the minors.

So, where did you find your definitive proof from that there is a Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and other Detroit players, out there, and what is this proof? If there is a second/different pose/version other than a Greenberg portrait wide pen Goudey premium on creamy colored stock, with a border, but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line, then I believe what you have is just a recently discovered, second Type 4 Greenberg pose, not a Type 5 card. I would assume that a large majority of experienced collectors would fall in line and agree with a Bob Lemke/SCD catalog definition of what comprises a Type 4 or Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium over pretty much anyone else who had/has a different thinking or opinion. Looking forward to hearing what you have as contrary info/proof. Thanks.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hmm, had not heard that before. I'll have to do some checking. Thank you if that is the case and I've been wrong. I've always gone off the old SCD catalogs and Bob Lemke descriptions, which were up published up until around 2017 I believe. So if there were any changes to what I previously remember, they must have been found/made in just the past few years.

Alright, did my checking. My understanding was that the Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums were also of the exact same/similar cream colored stock as the Type 5 cards, also the exact same borders like the Type 5 cards, and likewise did not have the line "LITHO IN U.S.A." on them, just like they also were not on the Type 5 cards. In fact, from what I'm seeing, the only difference between the Type 4 and Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium cards was that the Type 4 cards were all of major league ballplayers, including Greenberg and other Detroit players, along with many other MLB players from other teams as well, and all the Type 5 cards were just the Toronto and Montreal players from the International League. It was thought by many that BOTH the Type 4 and Type 5 sets may well have been a single Canadian issue then, but the people responsible for listing them, like Bob Lemke and the SCD catalogs, separated them into Type 4 and Type 5 cards and checklists based solely on whether they were in the major or minor leagues. And for the record, I have over half the Type 4 set myself, including a Greenberg portrait, along with a single Type 5 card of Henry Erickson, as part of my own type card collection. But by having an example of both Types 4 and 5, I can personally verify that both Types have all the exact same previously described attributes, so the only real seeming difference between the two Types is as Bob Lemke/the SCD catalogs put it, whether they were on the majors or the minors. And in 1937, Hank Greenberg was most definitely NOT in the minors.

So, where did you find your definitive proof from that there is a Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and other Detroit players, out there, and what is this proof? If there is a second/different pose/version other than a Greenberg portrait wide pen Goudey premium on creamy colored stock, with a border, but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line, then I believe what you have is just a recently discovered, second Type 4 Greenberg pose, not a Type 5 card. I would assume that a large majority of experienced collectors would fall in line and agree with a Bob Lemke/SCD catalog definition of what comprises a Type 4 or Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium over pretty much anyone else who had/has a different thinking or opinion. Looking forward to hearing what you have as contrary info/proof. Thanks.

I know that member MikeGarcia has one. I got my information regarding his and other Tigers inclusion in this sunset from Frank (fkw) on the forums years ago when I was still begining my Greenberg vintage collection.

The screenshot below is what I believe to be a Type 5 Greenberg that exists in Jefferson Burdick's collection side by side with a Type 4. Notice the differences in the image and saturation of the blacks.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Zan

I know that member MikeGarcia has one. I got my information regarding his and other Tigers inclusion in this sunset from Frank (fkw) on the forums years ago when I was still begining my Greenberg vintage collection.

The screenshot below is what I believe to be a Type 5 Greenberg that exists in Jefferson Burdick's collection side by side with a Type 4. Notice the differences in the image and saturation of the blacks.

Uh, Zan, you do know that the Type 2 Goudey wide pen cards are also bordered and also without the "LITHO IN U.S.A." line as well, right? The only real difference between the Type 2 and Type 4/5 cards is that the Type 4/5s are printed on what is described as a creamy colored cardboard/paper material. Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you are showing in those images are actually a Type 2 and a Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and not a Type 4 and Type 5 after all?

Also, as the Standard Catalog describes BOTH the Type 4 AND Type 5 wide pens as having the exact same creamy colored cardboard/paper, that would also tend to disprove that your images are of Type 4 and Type 5 wide pens of Greenberg as well. If they were, they should both be on the same creamy colored cardboard/paper, which your images show they clearly aren't. I don't know what else to tell you, but I believe in the accuracy and descriptions of the SCD catalogs, and the late Bob Lemke, much more than just someone posting on an online forum, with no real hard evidence or other info/sources to back up what they're saying. I'm not trying to demean anyone else or put them down, but the long-term, accepted SCD checklists and set descriptions seem pretty clear. There is a Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg, and all are of his portrait, but no Type 5. Good luck in finding all the Hank Greenberg cards you're looking for. But if you already have his portrait in each of the Type 1 through Type 4 wide pens, I think you're good to go on having all the Goudey wide pens you need. Good luck.

[BobC]

Oh, and as for the color saturation and other differences you pointed out, that could also be a printing anomaly, aging, fading, or other issues as well. It could also be that the images are from different scanners/sources and not exactly the same either and it makes one look different than the other. Bottom line I think still is that both the Type 4s and 5s came on the exact same creamy colored stock, and those two images don't look to be of that same stock. So once again, is it not possible your images are of Type 2 and Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums of Greenberg instead?

[BobC]

Sorry, double post.