How do you rate the Negro League greats when discussing the history of baseball?

[Seven]

This is something I've always thought and had discussions about, so I figured I'd bring it over here to Net54. There have been many great black ballplayers, that either never got the chance to play in Major League Baseball due to the color barrier, or by the time they were able to come over, they were well past their primes.

I think it's easier for a player like Satchel Paige to be rated. We saw what he was capable of as a pitcher, even at the end of his career. Paige was dominant, putting together some very impressive seasons especially at the ages of 45 and 46. I would think that had he been able to spend his entire career, playing for a big league team, he would easily rank in the top 3-5 pitchers statistically speaking. So I think we can likely conclude that Paige was one of the greatest pitchers ever.

But then we get the other players who are shrouded in equal parts of mystery, fact and legend. I'm talking about guys like Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Pop Lloyd, Jose Mendez, etc. I can go on. Writer Joe Posnanski attempted to tackle this in his Baseball 100, but I was curious what everyone thought? Thanks.

[Snapolit1]

I really enjoyed this short collection of essays. Discussed some of the real difficulties in comparing Negro League players to today. Lots of complicated issues, but clearly there were amazing players who were screwed out an opportunity to play in MLB. The gaping holes in the historical record make this a very difficult question to drill down on.

https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Leagues.../dp/1970159634

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I really enjoyed this short collection of essays. Discussed some of the real difficulties in comparing Negro League players to today. Lots of complicated issues, but clearly there were amazing players who were screwed out an opportunity to play in MLB. The gaping holes in the historical record make this a very difficult question to drill down on.

https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Leagues.../dp/1970159634

Didn't know about this collection, will definitely check it out. Thank you.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Seven

Didn't know about this collection, will definitely check it out. Thank you.

+1 Agree I will check it out also

[Touch'EmAll]

I don't see how one can argue that the top Negro League players weren't on a par with the best MLB players.

MLB of the late 1940's and early 1950's had an infusion of blacks - Jackie, Paige, Aaron, Mays, Campanella, etc.

The Negro Leagues didn't just produce these top players all of a sudden with no top talent before them.

[Exhibitman]

Thread needs an image or two

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I really enjoyed this short collection of essays. Discussed some of the real difficulties in comparing Negro League players to today. Lots of complicated issues, but clearly there were amazing players who were screwed out an opportunity to play in MLB. The gaping holes in the historical record make this a very difficult question to drill down on.

https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Leagues.../dp/1970159634

Its a really great collection of essays, and a great recommendation by Steve.

In the essay "Negro Leagues = Major Leagues", author Todd Peterson points out that between 1866 and 1948, top African American ball clubs played over 7,000 games with White semi-pro, college, minor League, and major league teams and beat them 65% of the time.

Negro League teams won about 55% of the time vs. white Major League teams.

The quality of play in the top 7 Major Negro Leagues was clearly as good as the MLB.

I think as more research is done, Negro Leaguers will continue to be considered the equal of the players in the MLB.

As already pointed out, authors like Joe Posnanski rank the Negro Leaguers high on their all-time lists

[Exhibitman]

I'm reading a book on the California Winter League, which is a somewhat integrated league that played in Cali in the prewar era. NL greats came here and played against a lot of MLB players wintering here as well as a lot of PCL players. The 1921-22 black team was headed by Oscar Charleston and included a bunch of legendary players, including Biz Mackey and Dobie Moore. They played in Los Angeles in a 4000 seat park against 10 white teams and regularly beat the teams staffed with MLB and PCL players. Charleston hit .405 and Mackey hit .382 against white opposition.

My point being that when they got the chance to go head to head, they could play just as well as the white guys. I have no doubt that the best black players would have been just as successful in MLB as the guys were who got into MLB after 1947.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'm reading a book on the California Winter League, which is a somewhat integrated league that played in Cali in the prewar era. NL greats came here and played against a lot of MLB players wintering here as well as a lot of PCL players. The 1921-22 black team was headed by Oscar Charleston and included a bunch of legendary players, including Biz Mackey and Dobie Moore. They played in Los Angeles in a 4000 seat park against 10 white teams and regularly beat the teams staffed with MLB and PCL players. Charleston hit .405 and Mackey hit .382 against white opposition.

My point being that when they got the chance to go head to head, they could play just as well as the white guys. I have no doubt that the best black players would have been just as successful in MLB as the guys were who got into MLB after 1947.

Adam,

I would generally agree, I think the top talents of the Negro leagues would have been just as successful as any of the other marquee players of the mlb.