Steve Carlton Rookie worth so little

[cgjackson222]

Does anyone know why Steve Carlton's Rookie is worth so little?

I mean a PSA 8 for well under a grand? It basically has the same value as a PSA 8 Luis Tiant Rookie from the same year.

Tiant was a great pitcher, but he's not in the hall of fame, and didn't win 4x Cy Youngs, including one of the greatest pitching seasons ever in 1972.
In '72 Carlton won the triple crown with a sub 2 ERA, 30 complete games, 310 strikeouts and 27 Wins. His WAR was 12.1 one of the highest single seasons ever.

I realize there are 4x as many PSA 8 Carlton's as Tiants, but I would assume that is because a much higher percetage of Carlton's are graded.

I guess it also has to do with the dreaded two person rookie card. Tiant was on his own card, and Carlton was not.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Does anyone know why Steve Carlton's Rookie is worth so little?

I mean a PSA 8 for well under a grand? It basically has the same value as a PSA 8 Luis Tiant Rookie from the same year.

Tiant was a great pitcher, but he's not in the hall of fame, and didn't win 4x Cy Youngs, including one of the greatest pitching seasons ever in 1972.
In '72 Carlton won the triple crown with a sub 2 ERA, 30 complete games, 310 strikeouts and 27 Wins. His WAR was 12.1 one of the highest single seasons ever.

I don't understand it.

Me, either. I'm not complaining, though. I was able to pick this up for a song.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I have discussed this with a collecting friend fairly often. It mystifies us as well. Carlton is a bargain. It seems Nolan Ryan gets nearly 100% of the hobby attention for pitchers of that era. Like you, however, I appreciate the bargains.

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[Cliff Bowman]

By no means the biggest reason but I always thought that Carlton, like Frank Robinson, was hurt by being known as unfriendly and unaccommodating to the fans and the media while he was playing.

[midmo]

In the mid 90's when I moved to Missouri I had a roommate that was a Cardinals fan but not a card collector. We were watching a game and the guys on tv mentioned Carlton and my roomie said he never heard of him. I was confused and asked him about some other contemporaries (like Ryan, Seaver, Brett, Bench, etc) and he knew all them but swore he didn't know Steve Carlton. I don't know if that was a weird anomaly or if Carlton doesn't quite have the same name recognition that other stars of his era have. Nolan Ryan is a name even young/new collectors know.

[ALR-bishop]

The Cardinals unfortunately thought he was worth Rick Wise

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

The Cardinals unfortunately thought he was worth Rick Wise

Al, as I’m sure you remember he ticked off Gussie Busch by asking for $60,000 a year or something to that effect. It was a shame as the Cardinals might have won a couple NL East division titles in the 70s with Carlton in the mix.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

By no means the biggest reason but I always thought that Carlton, like Frank Robinson, was hurt by being known as unfriendly and unaccommodating to the fans and the media while he was playing.

I agree with your thoughts on Carlton, it may be a bigger reason than you first thought. FRobby's RC in PSA 8 is a $4K card and a 7 is worth more than Carlton's 8.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Does anyone know why Steve Carlton's Rookie is worth so little?

I mean a PSA 8 for well under a grand? It basically has the same value as a PSA 8 Luis Tiant Rookie from the same year.

Tiant was a great pitcher, but he's not in the hall of fame, and didn't win 4x Cy Youngs, including one of the greatest pitching seasons ever in 1972.
In '72 Carlton won the triple crown with a sub 2 ERA, 30 complete games, 310 strikeouts and 27 Wins. His WAR was 12.1 one of the highest single seasons ever.

I realize there are 4x as many PSA 8 Carlton's as Tiants, but I would assume that is because a much higher percetage of Carlton's are graded.

I guess it also has to do with the dreaded two person rookie card. Tiant was on his own card, and Carlton was not.

The last two sales on Carlton RC in PSA 7, 475 and 540. Tiant in PSA 7 is a 100.00 card.

I think Carlton pitching too long also hurts the value of his card. A lot of collectors remember the 1985-1988 Carlton and not the 1972-1982 Carlton. In the earlier days of the hobby, it was definitely priced stronger versus other superstar rookie cards. It used to be the key card in the 1965 Topps set. Now it is behind base cards of Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Koufax, Aaron and Rose as well as the Morgan RC.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by rats60

The last two sales on Carlton RC in PSA 7, 475 and 540. Tiant in PSA 7 is a 100.00 card.

I think Carlton pitching too long also hurts the value of his card. A lot of collectors remember the 1985-1988 Carlton and not the 1972-1982 Carlton. In the earlier days of the hobby, it was definitely priced stronger versus other superstar rookie cards. It used to be the key card in the 1965 Topps set. Now it is behind base cards of Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Koufax, Aaron and Rose as well as the Morgan RC.

Not sure if you noticed, but I was talking about PSA 8, not PSA 7 for the Luis Tiant vs. Steve Carlton comparison.

If you look at sold items on ebay's website (not PSA's, which lags by a few months) you will see a Luis Tiant PSA 8 sold for $796 on December 1st.

Meanwhile, a PSA 8 Carlton #477 sold for $777 on December 13th.

The fact that Tiant is remotely close to Carlton in price is surprising to me, no offense to the great Luis Tiant.

[Rad_Hazard]

I never understood why his cards were always so cheap either. One of the greatest LHP of all time.

My first introduction to him was 1994 in the throws of my newly found baseball and card addiction. It was this interview called "Thin Mountain Air"...

https://deadspin.com/thin-air-in-the...d-co-478492324

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

I never understood why his cards were always so cheap either. One of the greatest LHP of all time.

My first introduction to him was 1994 in the throws of my newly found baseball and card addiction. It was this interview called "Thin Mountain Air"...

https://deadspin.com/thin-air-in-the...d-co-478492324

Holy Moly, Carlton is a nutjob. While it doesn't diminish his pitching career, it certainly can't help his collectability. Wow.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Holy Moly, Carlton is a nutjob. While it doesn't diminish his pitching career, it certainly can't help his collectability. Wow.

He definitely marched to the beat of his own drummer.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Not sure if you noticed, but I was talking about PSA 8, not PSA 7 for the Luis Tiant vs. Steve Carlton comparison.

If you look at sold items on ebay's website (not PSA's, which lags by a few months) you will see a Luis Tiant PSA 8 sold for $796 on December 1st.

Meanwhile, a PSA 8 Carlton #477 sold for $777 on December 13th.

The fact that Tiant is remotely close to Carlton in price is surprising to me, no offense to the great Luis Tiant.

I did, but one sale doesn't mean the cards are close in value. A PSA 8 Tiant sold for $305 on 10/18/2022 too. If you look at prices for other grades 5,6,7,9 & 10 the most recent sales of Carlton and Tiant have Carlton's RCs selling for multiples of Tiant's.

As far as Tiant, he has been on recent Veteran's Committee Ballots and is a possible future Hall of Famer. With Jim Kaat and Jack Morris making it, it seems like only a matter of time before Tiant does too.

[raulus]

Just be glad that you can pick it up for cheap!

It used to annoy me to high heaven that my man Willie Mays got no respect compared to Mantle.

Now that Mays' cards are closer in price to Mantle's, I'm wishing for the good old days!

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by rats60

I did, but one sale doesn't mean the cards are close in value. A PSA 8 Tiant sold for $305 on 10/18/2022 too. If you look at prices for other grades 5,6,7,9 & 10 the most recent sales of Carlton and Tiant have Carlton's RCs selling for multiples of Tiant's.

As far as Tiant, he has been on recent Veteran's Committee Ballots and is a possible future Hall of Famer. With Jim Kaat and Jack Morris making it, it seems like only a matter of time before Tiant does too.

Yeah, its not just one sale. A '65 Tiant PSA sold for $756 on December 10th, and if you look on 130point.com or any other website showing best offer sales on ebay, another sold for $700 on November 25th.

As for the $305 sale you site. That was actually on 10/18/2021, not this year.
https://www.psacard.com/auctionprice...ues/185553#g=8

I agree with you Luis Tiant will be in the Hall of Fame some day. But he is not on any ballot that is being voted on any time soon. And he is not Steve Carlton good.

[jchcollins]

You can basically blame it on the rule that baseball greatness does not always equal baseball card greatness.

Vintage pitchers are at a disadvantage to start with in terms of card popularity, because the hitters are always so much more popular. Add to that the strange and unspoken rule since about the year 2000 that people don't want to celebrate pitchers so much for preventing runs and winning ballgames, but only for the sexy things like striking out a lot of batters and accumulating a record number of no-hitters. (Remember that even for Nolan Ryan, the number of no-hitters he threw in comparison to the total rest of his career represents a scant fraction of his innings on a major league mound...) The result is that the Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax cards remained valuable, and a lot of other pitchers who were top tier HOF'ers in their day are largely forgotten about - at least besides their rookie cards. I think Carlton falls into that category. As others have pointed out, his unwillingness to cooperate with the media after about 1973 probably also has something to do with his image taking a beating, and then he was the classic example of a pitcher in his 40's who hung around too long after he had pretty much lost his stuff. Still, that is no excuse to me today for a kid who wasn't even alive in the 1970's or 80's being able to quote Nolan Ryan stats to you - yet they have never heard of Carlton and his '72 season, or can't tell you anything about Tom Seaver or Jim Palmer. Just doesn't add up. But I guess that is the way society has gone now.