Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[Rad_Hazard]

I was asking myself this question earlier and couldn't quite come up with the answer. I looked up all time pitching WAR to get an idea and he's 3rd. And based on the top 10 I think that's right, but I'm not sure. This is only WAR and there are other stats and factors to quantify pitching, but this is a start to the conversation.

Where do you think Clemens ranks all-time?

Where would you rank him if he put up the same numbers and was clean?

[darwinbulldog]

I have WaJo ahead of Cy, but I think Clemens at #3 is correct.

[Peter_Spaeth]

2 or 3 On his achievements. But, but, but…

[mrreality68]

He deserves to be up there depending on how you judge him and the steroid allegations.

The HOF voters have spoken and made their opinion known.

It is a shame he was amazing in his time

[clydepepper]

#1 cheatingest pitcher.


and a d*ck.


.

[G1911]

If he was clean, 1-4 range.

But he wasn’t clean. If his career ends after 1995 before he goes to Toronto and apparently starts using, reigniting and turning his career around, he has an astounding 144 ERA+, but only 2,700 innings and a 192-111 record. He chalked up another 2,100 innings at essentially the same performance level while using.

Steroids aren’t magic, they won’t make any pitcher able to do what Clemens did. He probably doesn’t deserve to have his entire second half wiped out completely. He probably doesn’t deserve full credit either, the steroids shouldn’t be dismissed entirely. I don’t know how to account for a middle ground here on any reasonable basis that isn’t completely arbitrary. I would probably put him 10-20th, on that arbitrary balance.