True Mint by Rosen

[samosa4u]

Many people credit Al "Mr. Mint" Rosen for making the hobby what it is today. He was making a name for himself in the 1980s, the decade I was born, and nor did he hang around up here in Canada, and so I never met him. However, I have read all the amazing stories on here (thanks to all you old-timers) and one of you did recommend that I read TRUE MINT. Here is a picture of it below:



I finished reading it last night and I was trying to figure out how to discuss it on here with yawl (I learned that word from Leon!) Now, instead of writing an essay, which would put most people to sleep, I decided to do something different here. In this thread, I will just take a few quotes from this book that stood out to me and post them on here. I will add some of my own notes at the bottom, and of course, if there is anybody who wants to discuss a certain topic in more detail, then post away!

Before I start, please remember that this book was published in 1994.

- It [third-party grading] ruined the coin business and it will ruin the card business.

- Produce a 1954 Aaron rookie graded a nine or a ten and people will go berserk. The price is thousands, but if you've got a near-mint to mint one, it's $1,200. It is such a growing spread that it doesn't make sense.

- Most people in this business grade wrong. What does it mean, "mint?" It means new as manufactured. Maybe it is off-center, and maybe there are print lines, but it is still mint.

- People say that a severely off-center card can be graded no better than excellent. Nonsense. If you were blindfolded and I told you that I had in my hand an excellent 1952 Topps Mantle card, what would you envision? You might see slightly fuzzy corners, borders not pure white, perhaps a card that displayed a bit of honest wear. What you would not imagine is a GEM MINT, full gloss card with white borders and 80-20 centering.

- At an auction, I had a Jordan rookie that I described as GEM MINT, unimprovable, side to side, top to bottom. It was returned by the customer saying that the centering was 51-49! Now, this is a sickness.

- Trimming is one of the things that has been going on for a long time.

- In recent years, a lot of guys were bleaching the Goudeys and Cracker Jacks. I looked at some cards on dealers' tables and the Cracker Jacks were whiter than my new underwear.

- I had one Mantle [1952 Topps] left, the best one. I had it on my desk. We had taken all the money from the find and we wanted to remodel our home which we had bought a year earlier. There was a guy actually working on my bathroom one day when the phone rang. It was a California collector, and he wanted to know if I had any Mantles left with the seams on the baseball facing right (it was a double printed card). Sure enough, the seams faced right. He offered me $4,000 for it, and that was more than I had ever gotten for a Mantle. So I asked my wife if I should sell it. She said no, you've always wanted a Mantle, but meanwhile the guy is banging away in my bathroom, charging me thousands of dollars. I decided to sell it. Ultimately, that collector sold the card himself, and it finally would up in the hands of Jim Copeland. When his collection went up for auction at Sotheby's, I ended up being a losing bidder at $41,000 on the same card that I had sold for $4,000 two years before.

My notes:

I found it interesting that a lot of things Rosen mentioned in this book are still being discussed today - 27 years later. It's also crazy that people were trimming and bleaching cards way before they became insanely expensive. And finally, I think Rosen's biggest problem was he couldn't hold on to a damn thing for even a week! ! It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

At an auction, I had a Jordan rookie that I described as GEM MINT, unimprovable, side to side, top to bottom. It was returned by the customer saying that the centering was 51-49! Now, this is a sickness.


- Al Rosen

That's messed up, on several levels.

[vthobby]

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

[bobbyw8469]

I own this book. Great read.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I own this book. Great read.

He offered me a copy of this book and I declined and I told him I read the first one. While talking with him another guy came up and he asked him if the wanted a book. The guy said I guess. Then Al asked if he wanted his autograph and the guy told him Hell no. His ego was so big that it did not faze Al one bit. Interesting guy.

[ALBB]

I once owned a 54 B Willie Mays from that TN find,..

..card was interesting... it actually had a few NM corners..no creases..but had gum stains..more then gum stains..more like hardened gum stuck to it /kind of lumpy ...a corner eaten away ( silver fish/ bugs ? ) ,staining...it was a sight !

[Peter_Spaeth]

I knew one of the guys in his circle to whom Alan was regularly flipping deals. Got spoiled picking up NM to MT pristine cards at Beckett prices.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

It is always easy to look back at the cards that grew 500 percent and wish you had kept them. But don't forget all the Eric Davis type rookie cards that were sold for $25 each back in the day that are worth .85 cents now.

Plus if those profits back then were used for Real Estate purchases or Stock purchases, then you may have realized the same gains anyway....and don't have the losses you would have by keeping all the stuff that went down in value like the Eric Davis rookies.

PS if that is how you were paying the bills by flipping and dealing cards, then keeping them isn't really much of an option anyway.

[ocjack]

The night before one of the Anaheim Nationals, I was out having dinner with my wife. A few tables over was Mr. Mint having dinner with Tony Galovich. Would have loved to have been a fly on the proverbial wall (or in the soup as the case may have been).

Another time, I was sharing a table at the '87 National. My friend had arranged for one of his contacts to bring him a Zeenut Dimaggio (with coupon) to purchase. Once the transaction was completed, he walked over to Mr. Mint's table and told him that he had just purchased some baseball books and this DiMaggio was tucked in the pages. Mr. Mint asked him how much he wanted for it. My friend said he was going to keep. Mr. Mint again asked and started pulling out his briefcase. My friend again stated he was going to keep the card but just wanted to show it to him. At that point, Mr. Mint went ballistic. He yelled at my friend, called him various names and told him to never bring him a card that wasn't for sale and to stay away from his table for the rest of the show. MY friend just laughed and walked away. To be honest, it was a little scary seeing how red a face can become in such a short time. lol

[Yoda]

IMO Alan was a wholesaler and lived by the code: flip or die.

But I believe his Mass find of '52 Topps high numbers may have been the greatest find ever. And the Tenn one wasn't too shabby either.....except for the silverfish.

[Ricky]

Back in the 80s Rosen used to set up every year at the Cranston show. He’d also appear on local talk radio talking about The hobby when he was in town.

[Mitochondria]

Originally Posted by Yoda

IMO Alan was a wholesaler and lived by the code: flip or die.

But I believe his Mass find of '52 Topps high numbers may have been the greatest find ever. And the Tenn one wasn't too shabby either.....except for the silverfish.

I never met him in person, but I enjoyed listening to his perspective on the hobby during the 1990s. I remember having to walk by his table which was always at the front of the entrance of the Nationals. His eyes scanning all the collectors to see what they were carrying. He most certainly was not a big fan of third party grading. You could tell that he was a gruff individual in public. You could hear his conversations with other hobbyists from afar even during a busy collector's show.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

He did mention in his book that he made about six million back in 1990. I'm not sure if this was six mill in sales or in profits, but yeah, this was crazy money either way. However, I think he had like fifty near mint high number sets from his find. He should have saved a few!

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Alan was in the hobby as a business. While he enjoyed holding on to some things for a short time, he often said that the only
thing he collected was $100 bills.

Haha!!

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

When he setup at Plymouth Mi show I was setting up at same show. He always paid extra for his table to be right at entrance to the show. That’s how he was able to buy walk ins 1st. Very arrogent, did not keep things very long. I, myself don’t credit him for “making the hobby for what it is today” Many other true collectors & dealers did that.

Like who?

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

I'm the old timer who recommended you read "True Mint," Mr. Samosa4U. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Lots of great stories. As others have said in this thread, understand that Rosen cared about cards BUT only if they were as close to GEM MINT as possible. Because he knew that he could then make easy money selling them. So in that sense he was all about the Benjamins. But there's no denying that the SI piece from 1988 on him was a huge boost for the hobby.
On May 22, 2016 I interviewed Rosen for a book I'm working on about Mastro Auctions. I just pulled out the transcript. Here's what he said about money:
"Money means a lot to me. But money doesn't mean you have to be a pig. My thing was hogs eat, pigs go to slaughter. And I never was dishonest to anyone, anyone. And I preach that to my children, honesty is the best policy." Rosen died in January 2017.
I once asked him at one of the old Chicago Sun-Times shows in Rosemont, Ill., when he would be writing his next book. He told me that a publisher wanted him to write a book about his dealings with MLB players and celebs. But he had no interest. He then told me some off-the-record stories about how some of the players he dealt with could be pretty nasty to the public and how it shocked him. Yes, Rosen was a character, as others have already made clear.

lol! Yes, it was you! Hello! I did read a few articles on your website, especially the one on Rosen, and they were awesome! Let me know once your book is done cause' I wanna' buy it.

Originally Posted by mightyq

you know they say if you have nothing nice to say keep mouth shut!! i will do that.......got me on the wrong day wrong time on one of his phone calls yelling and screaming.....that was the last time i ever spoke with the man, mind you i would spend 5 figures in each auction of the last 6 of his auctions, this was 2001, when i and he cut ties. i am sure you have no interest in the story. so like i said, i will zip it...

I do have interest in the story. Tell me what happened.

By the way, I do find it interesting how a lot of you on this forum once got screamed at by him. It doesn't sound normal to me. I'm no doctor, but it sounds like he could have been suffering from some kind of mental disorder. Bipolar?

Originally Posted by Yoda

IMO Alan was a wholesaler and lived by the code: flip or die.

But I believe his Mass find of '52 Topps high numbers may have been the greatest find ever. And the Tenn one wasn't too shabby either.....except for the silverfish.

Yeah, that story was horrible! Freaking silverfish!

[arcadekrazy]

Silverfish? Do tell. Was the find infested with them?

[Misunderestimated]

In my mind the "Hobby" and the "business" of card collecting are not same thing -- they're adjacent. While I find it clear that Rosen was good for the business. I'm not so certain about the hobby.

[Rich Klein]

Personally, Al never screamed or was anything less than professional to me. So on that level I don't have those memories. On those rare occasions we had to do something it was always fine and he was always a pleasure to work with. I actually drove him home one year when we flew back from whatever NSCC it was when his driver did not arrive. I was younger and what's 20 minutes to do someone who may be stuck at the airport at 1 AM a favor.

But, and this shows how important of a presence he is, the biggest discussions that pop up on my FB page and frankly the most likes I've ever received from a Klein's Korner column involved discussions of Al Rosen. To me, that shows his amazing influence on the hobby.

[tulsaboy]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I finished reading it last night and I was trying to figure out how to discuss it on here with yawl (I learned that word from Leon!)

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

I prefer youse.

[tulsaboy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I prefer youse.

OK, fair enough. We'll agree to adopt different spellings to reflect regional dialects.

kevin

[rjackson44]

I would sit at his auctions in montvale nj he was a character i guess no one is perfect

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

OK, fair enough. We'll agree to adopt different spellings to reflect regional dialects.

kevin

Y'all at least has a charm to it. Youse just sounds moronic, even worse than most of that Jersey tough guy talk. Bleep youse both.

[Bpm0014]

In Pittsburgh people say ‘yinz’. Terrible...

[bigtrain]

Alan was in the hobby as a business. While he enjoyed holding on to some things for a short time, he often said that the only
thing he collected was $100 bills.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

And the plural of Yall is "All Yall"

[661fish]

Can someone explain the silver fish to me?

[GasHouseGang]

Basically, it's as you might imagine. The silver fish ate their way through a number of boxes and packs. Many of the cards were badly damaged and ended up in the garbage. But their was still a number of packs and boxes that were untouched that were sold after the find in Sports Collectors Digest. I can't remember the prices, but I remember the advertisements. Maybe someone still has a copy they can share.

[bobbyw8469]

I got a copy of this book. Maybe I will put it up on the Net54 LIVE auctions if there is any interest in that sort of thing. It is a good read.

[Directly]

I was told he would buy sets, pulled the cards he wanted then at the end of the show would leave the rest on the table for other dealers to have for free.

On the flip side I ask my employee to take him a complete Topps poster set, he came back with $350.00 cash. I Ask him to take my another set Rosen yelled "the first set wasn't mint" then Alan supposedly threw his soda at him ?

[lumberjack]

I hope I'm not repeating myself....

Rosen carried around that briefcase stuffed with cash. That was his signature.

He was always after Frank Nagy, who was basically the godfather to Detroit area collectors. Nagy was a genius.

His line to Nagy was, "When are you going to invite me to your house?" This was presumedly so he could root through Nagy's collection.

Nagy, who really was the smartest guy in the room in those days, would reply,
"Bring more briefcases."

I love that.
lumberjack

[nineunder71]

‘Youse guys’ was new to me when I traveled back east, but y’all have no idea how common ‘y’all’ is round here



On that note: How many board members here have ever even been to New Mexico?????

[ocjack]

Taos is beautiful. Great restaurants, art galleries, locals. But anticipate a 2 1/2 to 3 hour drive from Albuquerque and drink plenty of water on the drive.

[Exhibitman]

The main problem with Rosen is that he modeled behavior for a generation of card dealers. Loud, arrogant, obnoxious, Aloha shirt, Rolex-and-pinkie-ring, wannabe wise-guy style assholes. Any concepts of being cordial to people and not behaving publicly in a way that would shame their mothers went right out the window because of Rosen.

I had one such experience with a wanna-be Rosen at an Anaheim show in the early 1990s where I'd set up to deal. A guy standing between our two tables asked me if I had a card for sale, I did, and he bought it. I think it was all of three bucks. My neighbor got apoplectic over the sale because I answered the guy's question but he was looking over his right shoulder at the other guy's case when he asked it. This Rosen clone (let's call him pig-man in a mumu) ran over to tell me that I had stolen his customer, then threatened to "break me" and shook his fist at me. Well, pig-man was maybe 5'10" on a good day and twenty years older than my mid-twenties 6'4" 220# (at that time) self, so when I stood up to 'discuss' his position he quickly scurried back behind his table and shut up for the rest of the afternoon.

The only other encounter I ever had like that was in a casino at 7:30 in the morning (I like to play craps early; my morning craps, if you will). I was leaving the casino walking past the bar area wearing my favorite Yankees shirt. Some middle-aged, terribly drunk moron weaved out of the bar holding a metal bottle of Lite and drawled "Don't come in here with that crap on" and tapped his bottle against the logo on my chest. He then looked up and realized he was a welterweight picking a fight with a heavyweight, and said "even if you are about 6'9" and 300 pounds. Uh, sorry about that." For the record, I was 6'4" 275# at the time.

[nineunder71]

Yes, Taos is very nice, however Ruidoso is far better, but still about 2 1/2 hours from the airport in Abq. Someday, the rest of the US will discover this gem of a state: great weather, awesome golf, awesome food, job expansion through the roof right now, and extremely low cost of living and RE prices....

Actually, not sure what I’m thinking w this post, please stay away and I’ll keep getting while the getting is good.

Originally Posted by ocjack

Taos is beautiful. Great restaurants, art galleries, locals. But anticipate a 2 1/2 to 3 hour drive from Albuquerque and drink plenty of water on the drive.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

‘Youse guys’ was new to me when I traveled back east, but y’all have no idea how common ‘y’all’ is round here



On that note: How many board members here have ever even been to New Mexico?????

Home of the Isotopes.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Home of the Isotopes.

They need to be the Dukes……and get back with the Dodgers. That was an awesome relationship during its run.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

‘Youse guys’ was new to me when I traveled back east, but y’all have no idea how common ‘y’all’ is round here



On that note: How many board members here have ever even been to New Mexico?????

I have been rock hunting in Rock Hound State Park in Deming - Found petrified wood and opals.

I camped in Las Cruces and came face to face with a mountain lion at night - he ran away when I shined a light on him.

I was preparing my lecture on the Confederate Invasion of New Mexico in 1862. Visited La Mesilla, Fort Craig, Valverde battle site, Glorietta Pass.

Visited the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe to see the exhibit on that campaign including the skeletons and relics of several Union soldiers found near Glorietta. Also went to Forked Lightning Ranch, formerly owned by actress Greer Garson, which was the site of the Union HQ for the Battle of Glorietta Pass.

Went through Truth or Consequences.

Visited Gila Cliff Dwellings National Park - late in the day so did not go into the ruins.

Camped in Raton in the rain.

How is that?

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

On that note: How many board members here have ever even been to New Mexico?????

Three super-sized natural wonders of North America (that I have visited): Canadian Rockies between Banff and Jasper; Grand Canyon; and Carlsbad Caverns. Wind, Jewel, Luray -- all spectacular, but Carlsbad is an order of magnitude larger. Hard to get to, but worth the detour.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

‘Youse guys’ was new to me when I traveled back east, but y’all have no idea how common ‘y’all’ is round here







On that note: How many board members here have ever even been to New Mexico?????

Hiked Philmont Boy Scout Ranch for week+. Beautiful country. Went thru Taos during that trip. Then I got my MA at Adams State University and visited Red River and drove around Northern NM looking at all of the trailers of people waiting for aliens. That was a cool day trip. Then I went to Four Corners and put a hand in the corner of the state.

As for Mr Mint, never heard of him before today!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[trambo]

I only met him once. I was in college and we had stumbled upon a 1930's find which included 1935 National Chicle Rockne AND Nagurski. Neither were mint but both were part of a collection from a farmer in my area. I was really, really excited to meet him at the Strongsville, OH (I think) show in early 1992 because we knew he would likely be the guy to buy those from us. Without getting into it too deeply, we did not end up doing a deal with him and the Sports Illustrated image I had in my mind of him (idolizing, that is) was forever tarnished and I was left with a very sub par experience.

It wasn't so much that he didn't buy the cards from us. Some of his comments made me question his ethics surrounding cards. I'm sure there are many, many great stories about Mr. Rosen. I just don't have any of them to share.

[clamendo]

I once brought him a 1962 Topps Baseball set to his office that looked great. He wanted it to be perfect. He said to me he was there to serve the top 0.5% of the collectors who had to have perfection. He said it was like legalized drugs!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by clamendo

I once brought him a 1962 Topps Baseball set to his office that looked great. He wanted it to be perfect. He said to me he was there to serve the top 0.5% of the collectors who had to have perfection. He said it was like legalized drugs!

With the PSA10 card collectors he wasn't wrong.

[Joe Hunter]

I met Al several times in the late '80's and early 90's. He was a showman and could certainly be rude, at times. Later in is career he seemed to mellow, somewhat. At the last show I saw him in KC, we had a good conversation and I sold him a couple of cardboard signs.

As far a New Mexico is concerned, I have been to Santa Fe and Taos. Loved both them. Great state.

As for earlier Nationals, I attended two in Chicago, one in St Louis and I think two in Arlington. All centered around family vacations. The shows were great and prices were pretty much in line with what you would see elsewhere. Crowding wasn't an issue. At one of the Arlington shows, we were eating breakfast in the hotel restaurant when Muhammad Ali came in with his group and sat at a table near us. When he got up to leave he came over to our table and gave my young son and my brother's young sons signed copies of his religious pamphlets. That just wouldn't happen, today, with an athlete of his stature.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by clamendo

I once brought him a 1962 Topps Baseball set to his office that looked great. He wanted it to be perfect. He said to me he was there to serve the top 0.5% of the collectors who had to have perfection. He said it was like legalized drugs!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you still have that set I am interested . . .

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[campersmd]

At the first minutes of the 1987? National in Atlantic City, Mr. Mint blew out the remaining damaged boxes and packs of 1955 Bowman for $20 apiece, but he would open each one and scream out the price of each card he encountered. I was about 100th in line to enter the show and there were already screaming people around his booth about 20 booths from the front of the hall. I ran down there and threw $20 to one of his assistants who handed me a great pack. It was one of very few that were not opened by Rosen himself. My wife was not happy that I wasted $20 on that pack. It's still unopened and a Robin Roberts is proudly showing through the back wrapper.

[jcmtiger]

I honestly never thought he was an expert on Baseball. cards, expert on cash yes, he could take big chances on cards he knew nothing about. Just my opinion. He bought a rare Mickey Mantle card from me, 3 years later told me it was fake. Ignored him , that was it.

[5-Tool Player]

Money makes the world go around